Law Congressman Salud Carbajal accused of doxxing ICE agent, who is later targeted by anti ICE protesters and struck with a rock.

[Confucamus]

Depends on their actions but if they're acting recklessly they should be shamed, reprimanded, or even fired if the offense is egregious enough.

So, being reprimanded and fired would be an official act that a mask wouldn't prevent. Are you sayin that the agents' superiors wouldn't know who the individuals are during each arrest? Also, by "shamed" I'm assuming that means publicly. We have seen a ridiculous amount of public "shaming" of officers who actually were performing their jobs perfectly. Just how much do you think the court of public opinion should apply in evaluating an officer's performance?

 

[Hog-train]

You changed the subject of our discussion. We were not debating legality, morality, or even the efficacy of deporting people not here legally. We were debating the necessity and merits of the masks and the Gestapo like procedures and behavior of ICE. You argued that the masks and behavior were needed because they were fighting cartels which is manure. Only a tiny fraction of the people ICE capture are guilty of anything aside from being here illegally.

It's not a matter of them deporting cartel members. It's a case of the cartels making billions every single year from trafficking people from Mexico into the US. Now that the border is effectively closed because people don't want to pay thousands to come here, their money has dried up.

So doxing an ICE agent can put them in danger of being personally targeted by Mexican cartel.

There is a more effective, easier, simpler, kinder, more transparent and MUCH CHEAPER way to deport people here illegally. And that is just to immediately deport them if they are arrested or convicted for another crime. We’re out here yanking mothers buying food out of grocery stores and literally taking the people who pick the very food we eat off the farms while they are picking it. Meanwhile we are billeting over 68,000 illegal aliens guilty of real crimes in our overpopulated prisons. (Which, ironically is a lower incarceration rate than US citizens- illegals are better members of society than we are LOL). Howzabout we start by sending them home and let the folks picking our food and cleaning our homes go about their business until we find a better way.

1. Many sanctuary city laws make it very difficult to pick up illegals directly from the prisons. The prisons and jails are not telling ICE when they're releasing illegals. This forced ICE to use a lot of resources tracking these criminal aliens down.

2. The majority of these mothers or farm workers have an existing final deportation order. That means a judge ordered them deported and they got full due process.

A lot of those folks Obama deported were also caught at the border and were not in the country long, in fact the law he used only allowed expedited deportations if the illegal had been here less than two years and most were here for far less, closer to two weeks.

Even at the time immigrant advocacy groups were against the lack of due process and I think there's a decent argument against the Obama approach but it's not the same as what Trump is doing which involves deporting people far from the border and who have been here over two years, some over ten years.

Only people ignorant of the details and partisan hacks pretend otherwise.

Obama used expedited removal in about 60% of his deportations - literally millions of people.

He deported anyone that was caught within 100 miles from the border and came within the last two years.

The only difference with Trump is that he removed the "within 100 miles" requirement. Now it is anyone that came within the last two years.

Obama did have a lot of numbers because they were caught close to the border, but that is not possible for Trump because the number of people trying to do a border crossing now super low.

 

[cooks1]

So why is it you think they're wearing masks then? To look spooky?

They are wearing masks so they can act in the over the top storm trooper fashion they are. If they were not wearing masks, they would have to behave much differently.

 

[nhbbear]

It's not a matter of them deporting cartel members. It's a case of the cartels making billions every single year from trafficking people from Mexico into the US. Now that the border is effectively closed because people don't want to pay thousands to come here, their money has dried up.

So doxing an ICE agent can put them in danger of being personally targeted by Mexican cartel.



1. Many sanctuary city laws make it very difficult to pick up illegals directly from the prisons. The prisons and jails are not telling ICE when they're releasing illegals. This forced ICE to use a lot of resources tracking these criminal aliens down.

2. The majority of these mothers or farm workers have an existing final deportation order. That means a judge ordered them deported and they got full due process.



Obama used expedited removal in about 60% of his deportations - literally millions of people.

He deported anyone that was caught within 100 miles from the border and came within the last two years.

The only difference with Trump is that he removed the "within 100 miles" requirement. Now it is anyone that came within the last two years.

Obama did have a lot of numbers because they were caught close to the border, but that is not possible for Trump because the number of people trying to do a border crossing now super low.

What cracks me up about all of this is that those that were bussed up to Chicago and nyc escaped the 100 mile zone and even though Chicago and nyc begged Texas and Florida to stop doing that, they are still protecting these drains on resources

 

[Islam Imamate]

Obama used expedited removal in about 60% of his deportations - literally millions of people.

He deported anyone that was caught within 100 miles from the border and came within the last two years.

The only difference with Trump is that he removed the "within 100 miles" requirement. Now it is anyone that came within the last two years.

Obama did have a lot of numbers because they were caught close to the border, but that is not possible for Trump because the number of people trying to do a border crossing now super low.

No that's not the only difference, Trump is also deporting people who have been here for over two years and since closet to ten. Nor to mention I can't recall Obama ever hatching a deal like Trump did with Bukele where deportees are sent straight into a foreign gulag. So stop lying about the fact that Trump's deportations have some clear precedent in the Obama admin, just own this unprecedented campaign against immigrants.

 

[Islam Imamate]

So, being reprimanded and fired would be an official act that a mask wouldn't prevent. Are you sayin that the agents' superiors wouldn't know who the individuals are during each arrest?

I have no faith that this admin would take seriously it's responsibility to rein in it's agents without public and Congressional oversight.

Also, by "shamed" I'm assuming that means publicly. We have seen a ridiculous amount of public "shaming" of officers who actually were performing their jobs perfectly. Just how much do you think the court of public opinion should apply in evaluating an officer's performance?

Yes shamed publicly, they're public servants after all. Public shame is an important tool to restrain officials and agents. Idk if superiors should take it into account but we should have a right to see the faces of these Feds when they're on duty with some exceptions.

 

[Sinister]

Seems like a good place to post this:

Ice ‘secretly deported’ Pennsylvania grandfather after he lost green card, report says

Family of Luis Leon say they were initially told by someone he had died, but they found him alive in Guatemala hospital

www.theguardian.com

Secret deportation of an 81 year-old Green Card holder who was just trying to get his Green Card replaced. Then the Family was contacted and told he was dead. He was in a Hospital in Guatemala, a place he's not even from.

This is the kind of sh*t ICE is up to, and we're supposed to feel sympathy for them? Yeah, nah.

 

[Confucamus]

I have no faith that this admin would take seriously it's responsibility to rein in it's agents without public and Congressional oversight.

We can agree to disagree on this.

Yes shamed publicly, they're public servants after all. Public shame is an important tool to restrain officials and agents. Idk if superiors should take it into account but we should have a right to see the faces of these Feds when they're on duty with some exceptions.

It's also an incredibly dangerous standard that could put law enforcement officials' lives in danger, especially in this line of work and the atmosphere right now. You're assuming this would only be used to hold accountable ICE agents who violated their protocol or abused their position. But it would most definitely be used by people for purposes of intimidation and revenge. Let's say ICE busts a high powered illegal alien that was manufacturing or distributing drugs and/or weapons, which has been happening. Whether the arrest was made with or without incident wouldn't matter in the eyes of that illegal aliens' friends/families/cohorts at all. They could easily identify and hunt down any law enforcement involved.

 

[Islam Imamate]

It's also an incredibly dangerous standard that could put law enforcement officials' lives in danger, especially in this line of work and the atmosphere right now. You're assuming this would only be used to hold accountable ICE agents who violated their protocol or abused their position. But it would most definitely be used by people for purposes of intimidation and revenge.

If people commit crimes against ICE agents they should also be held accountable, doesn't change how I feel about what I said though.

Let's say ICE busts a high powered illegal alien that was manufacturing or distributing drugs and/or weapons, which has been happening. Whether the arrest was made with or without incident wouldn't matter in the eyes of that illegal aliens' friends/families/cohorts at all. They could easily identify and hunt down any law enforcement involved.

Can you point to a recent example?

 

[Confucamus]

If people commit crimes against ICE agents they should also be held accountable, doesn't change how I feel about what I said though.

Accountability for crimes against ICE is important, as is preventing these crimes against them in the first place.

Can you point to a recent example?

 

[Hog-train]

No that's not the only difference, Trump is also deporting people who have been here for over two years and since closet to ten.

Yes I know that. But those people have final deportation orders - meaning they've exhausted all legal avenues of staying here so they already got full due process.

Some of those people have been in the country for over 10 or more years. It's just that previous governments haven't been always enforcing those final deportation orders. Well now they are.

Nor to mention I can't recall Obama ever hatching a deal like Trump did with Bukele where deportees are sent straight into a foreign gulag. So stop lying about the fact that Trump's deportations have some clear precedent in the Obama admin, just own this unprecedented campaign against immigrants.

You're trying to portray it like Obama's expedited removals were vastly different than Trump's, but they are at their core the same exact legal process. You come illegally within the last two years and the government can give you a fast track deportation by an immigration official as long as you get a credible fear interview.

That's been the law since the mid - 90's. And so far, Obama used far more expedited removals than Trump.

The Bukele deal was like 225 people and only for illegals whose native governments wouldn't take them.

What cracks me up about all of this is that those that were bussed up to Chicago and nyc escaped the 100 mile zone and even though Chicago and nyc begged Texas and Florida to stop doing that, they are still protecting these drains on resources

Honestly was a genius political move by the Texas governor. On top of that, it was insane that Texas was trying to take care of that alone. Here in New York, it cost billions just to deal with the ones sent there.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Accountability for crimes against ICE is important, as is preventing these crimes against them in the first place.

Okay but I still think they shouldn't get to hide behind masks.

Notice that Ochoa was arrested at a traffic stop by police in uniform with their faces visible and their names public. Kind of supports my point that masks aren't needed and LEOs can act out in the open.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Yes I know that..

So stop lying then.

You're trying to portray it like Obama's expedited removals were vastly different than Trump's, but they are at their core the same exact legal process

They are qualitatively different and you just admitted to knowing that so stop lying.

You come illegally within the last two years and the government can give you a fast track deportation by an immigration official as long as you get a credible fear interview.

Except Trump denied at least two hundred deportees that due process.

The Bukele deal was like 225 people and only for illegals whose native governments wouldn't take them.

Uh sure but Obama never did such a thing did he?

 

[Hog-train]

So stop lying then.

How is that a lie? Are you intentionally not even reading what I just said?

The people who have been for over two years are not being deported using expedited removal. They are people that have FINAL DEPORTATION ORDERS. They got full due process already.

They are qualitatively different and you just admitted to knowing that so stop lying.

Other than they weren't taken within 100 miles from the border, how are they qualitatively different? Obama used expedited removal literally millions of times and now Trump is using them.

When the majority of people and media articles complain about "no due process" and how they some people didn't have their day in court, they're talking about the expedited removal process. They don't realize expedited removal is the full due process for recent arrivals with no protected status.

Except Trump denied at least two hundred deportees that due process.

Who are these two hundred that didn't get due process?

Uh sure but Obama never did such a thing did he?

Obama also didn't have to deal with a massive influx of millions of migrants crossing during his predecessor's term.

Also it looks they are all being exchanged with Venezuela now for 10 American prisoners being released from Venezuelan custody.

Prisoner Swap Frees Americans in Venezuela for Migrants in El Salvador

Ten Americans and permanent U.S. residents detained in Venezuela were traded for more than 250 Venezuelans expelled from the U.S. and imprisoned in El Salvador.

www.nytimes.com

 

[NoSmilez]

https://thehill.com/policy/international/5411645-chilean-man-deported-guatemala-pennsylvania-trump-immigration/

 

[Islam Imamate]

How is that a lie? Are you intentionally not even reading what I just said?

You said Obama did the same thing that Trump is doing now and yet you're well aware of the differences. You're okay with lying about it until pushed on it.

The people who have been for over two years are not being deported using expedited removal. They are people that have FINAL DEPORTATION ORDERS. They got full due process already.

Many of those people were under some temporary legal status which was revoked by Trump, that's not something Obama was doing as far as a I'm aware.

Other than they weren't taken within 100 miles from the border, how are they qualitatively different? Obama used expedited removal literally millions of times and now Trump is using them.

So other than the fact that they're well beyond the border and being nabbed by men in plain clothes and masks to be thrown into unmarked vans and that some were sent to a foreign prison and that green card holders are getting detained for protected speech its basically the same in your eyes?

When the majority of people and media articles complain about "no due process" and how they some people didn't have their day in court, they're talking about the expedited removal process. They don't realize expedited removal is the full due process for recent arrivals with no protected status.

Who are these two hundred that didn't get due process?

The ones sent to El Salvador in the middle of the night in violation of a judges' order.

Obama also didn't have to deal with a massive influx of millions of migrants crossing during his predecessor's term.

He did though, they're was a big surge of illegal immigration in the early to mid 2000s.

Also it looks they are all being exchanged with Venezuela now for 10 American prisoners being released from Venezuelan custody.

Prisoner Swap Frees Americans in Venezuela for Migrants in El Salvador

Ten Americans and permanent U.S. residents detained in Venezuela were traded for more than 250 Venezuelans expelled from the U.S. and imprisoned in El Salvador.

www.nytimes.com

Uh okay but my point still stands, Obama did nothing of the sort.

 

[Mr. Shickadance]

So you don't have any record of unidentified ICE agents taking people into custody. Got it. Now piss off.

But they were!!!! There just weren’t smart phones around.

Also we really have no clue of history before the smart phone as there were no ways to document stuff without them.

 

[Hog-train]

You said Obama did the same thing that Trump is doing now and yet you're well aware of the differences. You're okay with lying about it until pushed on it.

The differences between Obama's and Trump's expedited removals do not matter at all in context of the "no due process" complaints. They're the same. Same legal process and same steps.

All the complaints are like: "they never got their day in front of a judge" "never got a chance to appeal" etc. Yea those complaints apply to ALL expedited removals.

That's the nature of expedited removal. They're done fast, you have limited chances to appeal and they're done by a lower level immigration official as opposed to a judge.

Many of those people were under some temporary legal status which was revoked by Trump, that's not something Obama was doing as far as a I'm aware.

The TPS extensions for 7 countries were revoked by Trump, but none of them have actually ended yet because the original TPS given are still valid. So none of those people have been deported (yet.) Remains to be seen what happens with them.

And it was completely within the executive branches power to revoke the extensions.

So other than the fact that they're well beyond the border and being nabbed by men in plain clothes and masks to be thrown into unmarked vans and that some were sent to a foreign prison and that green card holders are getting detained for protected speech its basically the same in your eyes?

I don't give a shit whether they made it farther into the country or got caught within 100 miles of the border. That is a completely arbitrary distinction. They came illegally within the last 2 years, so eligible to be legally deported using expedited removal. I want them all deported.

Do not agree at all with green card holders being detained for protected speech. Do not agree with all forms of Israel cuckery.

The ones sent to El Salvador in the middle of the night in violation of a judges' order.

Yea don't care that much. I believe they all have gang ties. I do not believe the media stories saying they're all these innocent men. BS. And many of them had final deportation orders - That's what much of the media is not telling you.

I looked deeply into all the details of Abrego Garcia's case including seeing court documents. He was very likely MS-13. He was also a wife beater - I saw the court documents his wife made as well as audio where she testified to his abuse. On top of that, saw pictures of his initial arrest where he was obviously trafficking people. And he had a previous deportation order.

He did though, they're was a big surge of illegal immigration in the early to mid 2000s.

The highest estimates list illegal entries to be about 4 million over the entire 2000-2010 decade. The Biden years had a much higher and faster rate. On top of that are all the people he let in through the CBP One app, all the hundreds of thousands he let in through humanitarian parole, as well as all the additional new TPS he granted.

He essentially opened the border.

Uh okay but my point still stands, Obama did nothing of the sort.

Obama did because all of those were removed via expedited removal.

 

[Confucamus]

Notice that Ochoa was arrested at a traffic stop by police in uniform with their faces visible and their names public. Kind of supports my point that masks aren't needed and LEOs can act out in the open.

The officer made a routine traffic stop. ICE made the arrest. Thankfully, they were able to send over info to the officer that pulled over Ochoa and a team was sent out to arrest him. Still, even if you had a point, nobody is going to target an officer that made a routine traffic stop of a person unknown to them. ICE's mission is literally to identify and hunt down these guys. It is absolutely much more likely that ICE agents would be targeted by gangs as a method to seek revenge and/or deter ICE from completing their mission.

 

[shunyata]

If you're a protester and you throw a rock at a Fed and you get what's coming to you then I won't feel bad for you but that doesn't mean I'm going to feel bad for the jackboot either.

Slightly offtopic, but I genuinely feel bad for the guy who spent years in prison for throwing a shoe at Bush.