Wrestling Catch Wrestling United

[rmongler]

Otherwise, the person you seem to be describing is someone who doesn't even train and is more comparable to your older brother who watches WWE and tries to replicate moves on you in the living room for laughs.

its moar likely than you think, get scanned today!

 

[Supereem]

The FUCK I AM!

CATCH AS CATCH CAN!

I train in a lot of martial arts but just because I have trained in them doesn't make one of them. Now I have a BJJ 2nd degree Black Belt but that came from competition NOT from spending all those years doing BJJ. I am an autodidact when it comes to grappling and moves and concepts are very easy for me to pick up. I can walk on a mat with a gi on and compete and even use BJJ philosophies and approaches. However, that's not my base nor my competition ideology. I am a Catch Wrestler and I stick by the concepts and philosophies of CACC no matter what the rules or "style" is.

And the BJJ community has tried to dismiss my use of CACC for YEARS. It's like they can't accept that there's other ideas that work. I'm not disparaging or putting down BJJ by doing CACC and winning. I'm just doing what I like and believe in.

Okay I just had a heart attack that Josh Barnett himself came online to respond to my posts. This is a big deal for me because you and Mark Hunt are probably the only not shot UFC fighters that give me goosebumps when I watch anymore.

That being said you responded to my criticism of CACC guys "over exaggerating" how painful CACC is. It is funny the CACC gym I was referring too has now decided competitions are not CACC because it is a sport and thus not good for self defence. I can't stand it. There is a video out there of you entering a grappling tournament and using all of Billy Robinsons CACC tricks on people. I agree, some of the shit you pulled would hurt more than being tooled by a Gracie for example. However the above gym I mentioned use it as a way to dismiss BJJ as something that doesn't work. We all know that is bullshit (the same as when BJJ guys claim CACC is just BJJ but rebranded for white people) and I think it does more harm than good in a lot of ways because anyone with half a brain can see through their bullshit and it reflects badly on Catch.

You pointed out how important a wrestling base is for CACC. What is your opinion on alot of the the Pancrase submission wrestlers who had pretty average wrestling still found ways to pull out submissions? How does this effect how we categorize what is Catch and what is not?

Funaki comes to mind and he focused on a triangle from guard (which if memory serves correct he pulled off before Royce?). Frank Shamrock from memory didn't have a wrestling base but made up for it with a lot of submissions off his back and was outwreslted by Allan Goes. You too relied on your guard a lot in your earlier years and played a defensive guard game against Randy until you managed to get on top and win the belt. Even Sakuraba was willing to stay on his back against Randleman hunting for submissions. Imanari and Kforcer the mod (is he still around?) relied almost solely on standing leg lock entries as opposed to a takedown game.

So I guess what I am trying to establish is that even though a wrestling base and being on top is important, there is a lot of of footage of Catch Wrestlers using very non Catch Wrestler techniques yet in my opinion still embody the spirit of Catch. Do you think what can be classified as CACC goes deeper than just your stereotypical CACC game as defined many times in this thread? A lot of people only consider if CACC if you are using a 1920s ruleset. I don't like this definition because it ignores the later history of CACC.

And this relates to above but do you categorize fighters like Funaki and the Pancrase fighters as CACC? Some people in this thread have claimed they are not and merely submission wrestlers.

PS I enjoyed rolling you up in Katamari.

Something tells me that his style of trolling isn't going away anyway. Besides, I've never seen him latch on to something that wasn't true.

I can't tell, is this a complement?

usually its more like concern trolling like what supereem was doing.

Okay, I am sick of your bullshit. Because I don't approve of the self taught CACC trainers out there training people for MMA fights despite no formal grappling education or competition experience you think I am a "troll"?

Go back to the FIRST CACC thread on Sherdog and you will see me supporting the art from the beginning. This thread predates your membership on Sherdog.

I admit that I have no formal CACC training, but I love the concept and its history and have been a stern supporter since I discovered Catch.

When I visited Tokyo I went on a hellish journey across that Metropolis on the search for Funaki's Plabs instruction booklet, which Kforcer credited as his main source of knowledge. I found the book in the back of an old pro wrestling store. I then traveled to the other side of that damn city to another pro wrestling store so I could buy a Sakuraba toys and masks. I found a secondhand copy of Sakuraba's VHS instructional on the web. I had to bribe a Japanese guy to order it for me to his house in Japan and then send it to me.

I have spent ALOT of money, time and effort collecting LEGITIMATE sources of Catch wrestling instruction not only for my own benefit but to preserve the art. Funaki's P-Lab book is out of print and I went through the effort of scanning every page of that damn thing and sharing it with the few who were open to learning from him.

CACC has taught me how to apply the Kimura differently, to fight from the turtle, to learn how to attack legs and defend mine before it entered into mainstream BJJ post 2009. KForcer was actually a big influence on me since he was in alot of ways self taught and had such an exciting game. I was determined to find a way to learn just like he did.

And yet these new age grapplers who are learning from "legit" CACC instructors with less real time grappling experience than me telling me I am the troll and don't understand "real" CACC? Or even worse that I somehow secretly hate it? I doubt I would pay a premium for old instructionals of something I hated.

And lastly, if you open a gym after not even 5 years of solid full time grappling and your only instruction comes from flying a dude in from overseas or interstate for a seminar twice a year then you are a con artist through and through. I don't care what art you learn.

I'm glad that Josh shutted him up.

I don't think Josh "shutted me up". Josh himself said there are far too many inexperienced idiots out there opening schools. Reminds me of someones coach actually...

 

[Supereem]

I know what you mean....

Okay, most people in this thread are not criticizing you because you do Catch. They are not critics of Catch. What they are critics of is your coach who is a known fraudster who came out of the woodworks and started a Catch gym with no formal training. THAT is why people don't like you.


It is obvious to anyone with a brain that Catch is legit. Where in BJJ would Sakuraba learn to enter a kimura from turtle and finish it the way he did against Renzo? Telles was NOT around back then to teach him. That (with lots of other examples) is definitive proof that what is unique about Catch has something very useful and exciting to teach.


You however take instruction and pay a man with no Catch Wrestling experience or even extensive competition experience. Yes, we have all seen the videos of him losing but that does not help his case. This man was also a fraudster who stole money from people when he pretended to be a Sambo champion.


Now, here is why what you and your coach are doing is bad for Catch.

1) You instruct people in submission grappling for MMA.

2) Because you guys have no proper understanding on the techniques (due to no formal education) you will not know how to teach it correctly.

3) once that person is exposed to a legit grappling coach (whether it be wrestling or Jiujitsu) he will realize how full of shit you guys are.

4) that guy will spread word that Catch Wrestling is shit. This is not because Catch itself is shit but because it is being taught but complete morons whose wrestling couldn't hold up in high school and whose submissions wouldn't be competitive at blue belt.

5) Catch loses.


Your critics don't like you because they LOVE Catch and want it to be legitimate. If I actually hated Catch like you think I would be supporting you because you are like a cancer destroying any good reputation the art has.


For every time Barnett submits someone 100 of you untrained fools go out and lose in spectacular fashion. It is counter productive. You guys have no base to learn from which is why it is so horribly wrong. Now I understand not all of us have the luxury of learning from Barnett. But the answer to that is NOT to open your own half assed school.


I also understand there are ALOT of shitty BJJ schools out there started by white or blue belts (some of which promoted for the sole purpose of opening a franchise). Now that is a problem, but most of those guys steer clear of the limelight. In Catch it is almost the opposite.

 

[Supereem]

And lastly, can we in this thread organize a proper training camp for Sakuraba? It will be heart breaking to see him lose. Who is he going to train with? Lets send over some of CWU's finest to sharpen his skills.

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

And lastly, can we in this thread organize a proper training camp for Sakuraba?

Yeah dude, fly a bunch of amateur grapplers to Japan on their own dime.

Seriously though, I do have a soft spot for Sak since he was my first favorite fighter, and I hope he has enough contacts in the grappling world that he can get himself ready. I doubt Renzo will show up in particularly good shape, but he will have more than enough high level guys to work with.

 

[rmongler]

snip

Well since were delivering mea culpas I'll give it a go too.

For my part I have something of a background in politics so my 'ideological crusader' tendencies sometimes bleed over to things I like. you know how it goes, when you're advocating something sensitivity to tone and implications goes a long way, can't let anyone get confused over the fact that X is clearly the best. Values are implicit teleologies after all, and sometimes people say one thing in order to score brownie points in a debate (or just to contradict the other guy just because) but when taken to their natural conclusions would actually imply something anti-ethical to their ostensible convictions.

With that said here's the point where one would usually say 'it was nothing personal' bu t that'd be a lie since I am a romantic and infact try to make most everything personal (but not humanized, down with humanism!). So rather I'll truthfully say no harm intended, playing grappling police is almost reflexive.

 

[Supereem]

Yeah dude, fly a bunch of amateur grapplers to Japan on their own dime.

Seriously though, I do have a soft spot for Sak since he was my first favorite fighter, and I hope he has enough contacts in the grappling world that he can get himself ready. I doubt Renzo will show up in particularly good shape, but he will have more than enough high level guys to work with.

I was joking .

 

[_Glorfindel_]

Okay, most people in this thread are not criticizing you because you do Catch. They are not critics of Catch. What they are critics of is your coach who is a known fraudster who came out of the woodworks and started a Catch gym with no formal training. THAT is why people don't like you.


It is obvious to anyone with a brain that Catch is legit. Where in BJJ would Sakuraba learn to enter a kimura from turtle and finish it the way he did against Renzo? Telles was NOT around back then to teach him. That (with lots of other examples) is definitive proof that what is unique about Catch has something very useful and exciting to teach.


You however take instruction and pay a man with no Catch Wrestling experience or even extensive competition experience. Yes, we have all seen the videos of him losing but that does not help his case. This man was also a fraudster who stole money from people when he pretended to be a Sambo champion.


Now, here is why what you and your coach are doing is bad for Catch.

1) You instruct people in submission grappling for MMA.

2) Because you guys have no proper understanding on the techniques (due to no formal education) you will not know how to teach it correctly.

3) once that person is exposed to a legit grappling coach (whether it be wrestling or Jiujitsu) he will realize how full of shit you guys are.

4) that guy will spread word that Catch Wrestling is shit. This is not because Catch itself is shit but because it is being taught but complete morons whose wrestling couldn't hold up in high school and whose submissions wouldn't be competitive at blue belt.

5) Catch loses.


Your critics don't like you because they LOVE Catch and want it to be legitimate. If I actually hated Catch like you think I would be supporting you because you are like a cancer destroying any good reputation the art has.


For every time Barnett submits someone 100 of you untrained fools go out and lose in spectacular fashion. It is counter productive. You guys have no base to learn from which is why it is so horribly wrong. Now I understand not all of us have the luxury of learning from Barnett. But the answer to that is NOT to open your own half assed school.


I also understand there are ALOT of shitty BJJ schools out there started by white or blue belts (some of which promoted for the sole purpose of opening a franchise). Now that is a problem, but most of those guys steer clear of the limelight. In Catch it is almost the opposite.

You mad bro? lol!

1) Why applying cacc for mma is bad??

2) I dont understand what i teach? Are you serious? You think that a mechanical engineer who's teaching at college/university for 20 years, with 20 years of scolarity dont understand the mecanics of grappling?? Realy?

For the rest, come in Quebec in our gym and let's verify all you're pretention about me or my guys.

Here is a little video, look who's coaching against us. It was some years ago in an amateur show.

yeah, i am full of shit and i'm a bad coach ;-)

FightQuest the best amateur show made by tristar gym : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOjjgWMf_NI

Instinct, formerly TKO, a pro show: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_RAemZITEE

I can also put some grappling vids if you want ;-)

You are full of shit. I'm glad Barnett shutted you mouth ;-)

 

[Title Fight Productions]

Are those guys doing MMA wearing boxing gloves?

 

[Nnedd]

I don't understand, are you coaching or fighting in those videos?

 

[_Glorfindel_]

Are those guys doing MMA wearing boxing gloves?

In Quebec, for amateur mma, it's 10oz gloves with holes in them for fingers. They are working on new gloves, 10 oz, but more 'mma like'

 

[_Glorfindel_]

I don't understand, are you coaching or fighting in those videos?

Coaching.

Supereem imply that i suck, so i just putted a couple of vids of my guys winning against Tristar guys (Firaz Zahabi on the amateur fight)

I can put some vids of our lost too ;-)

 

[Einarr]

What are you Catch guys opinions on Dan the Wolfman? He's pumping out terrible crappling videos while claiming Catch Wrestling.

 

[_Glorfindel_]

What are you Catch guys opinions on Dan the Wolfman? He's pumping out terrible crappling videos while claiming Catch Wrestling.

Dan talk about cacc since about 2 years...Before that, he was not saying it was cacc...So, i guess it's the flavor of the month...

 

[Crossface9]

What are you Catch guys opinions on Dan the Wolfman? He's pumping out terrible crappling videos while claiming Catch Wrestling.

I consider myself a submission wrestler because I don't have lineage in cacc. I think its degrading to cacc and I don't think he should be allowed to spam f12. I think any legitimate grappler should be turned off by him. UG ousted him and that sounds like a good idea for sherdog. I'm a chill guy mostly and do not get a long with salesman types like Dan. He might know submissions, but he certainly doesn't know how to wrestler. Just imagine him going the likes of Josh Barnett or any good wrestler with submission experience..

 

[German Supplex]

What are you Catch guys opinions on Dan the Wolfman? He's pumping out terrible crappling videos while claiming Catch Wrestling.

From my understanding, Dan the Wolfman has trained under Gene Lebell. There's no denying the legitimacy of Gene Lebell's catch wrestling credentials.

 

[Einarr]

From my understanding, Dan the Wolfman has trained under Gene Lebell. There's no denying the legitimacy of Gene Lebell's catch wrestling credentials.

I've trained under Billy Robinson (for 3 whole hours, haha), I wouldn't claim that makes me a Catch wrestler.

 

[ChainFlow]

I've trained under Billy Robinson (for 3 whole hours, haha), I wouldn't claim that makes me a Catch wrestler.

How was it?
I bitterly regret delaying my plan to attend his seminar too long.

 

[German Supplex]

I've trained under Billy Robinson (for 3 whole hours, haha), I wouldn't claim that makes me a Catch wrestler.

Dan seems to have a brown belt under Gokor and Gene Lebell. I figure that it took him a little more than 3 hours to achieve that.

 

[_Glorfindel_]

Dan seems to have a brown belt under Gokor and Gene Lebell. I figure that it took him a little more than 3 hours to achieve that.

We Did 2 seminars with Billy, i have it in video.