Can The Avengers take down Superman?

closequarters said:
Superman can also turn back time by flying around the planet with such speed and force that it spins the Earth’s rotation the opposite direction. That’s tough to beat.
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I.........I dont think that's how time or time travel works lol
 
bad seed said:
if you like Molecule Man so much, why don't you go marry him?
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Bob Gray said:
Its just as asinine as moving at the speed of light in the first place.

If you want to bring up every power ever used in the history of ever, ten you also have to take into account how easily these powers have been countered.

Heroes and villains with super speed have been beaten time and time again, often by normal people. It doesnt matter what would "really" happen. We either take into account the times the superpowers have been negated or we exclude them.

As it is, super speed has never been an "I win" button among superheroes.


Besides, DC is fucking stupid with their heroes. Even when it comes down to silly board games like heroclix. Marvel has their biggest heroes cost around 170-200 points and then DC releases a Joker figure thats 200+ points. Likewise, heroes like Robin and catwoman cost more than Wolverine, X-men, etc. DC has total Little Dick Syndrome and overcompensates whenever possible.
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Ok here's the thing. There are many online forums where comic book fantasy battles are discussed. Yes, super nerdy, I know. Every single one of them, has a policy of using the established feats only of that version of the character. And completely disregarding stories where heroes or villains were jobbed out purely because they did not use their powers. These rules are often called Plot induced Stupidity ,Character Induced Stupidity, and the Spiderman vs Firelord rule. Because they are such common tropes in the genre.


If you do not set up rules like that, no conversation can ever go anywhere. Because every character has nonsensical wins and losses vs other characters purely to serve the story they want to tell. When debating power sets and possible fights, we do not have a reason to have one side simply not use their powers at all. If you decide to argue using that logic you can justify anyone beating anyone, for any reason.


For example the flash has a rogues gallery that mostly has no super speed, that he continually loses to in nonsensical ways, because there is no way to write someone that can move at the speed of light losing to a normal person that isn't incredibly retarded. Even in the context of fantasy battles. So they go by feats or Spider-man can ko cosmic level beings, and captain america can ko the hulk, because reasons. Even though that's dumb as hell, based on their abilities.
 
DC characters with their light speed abilities are so lame, and one of the many reasons why DC comics sucks overall. Yes, Marvel has their ridiculously super powered characters, but they are somewhat kept in reason. DC just throws out all laws of physics, seemingly just to have characters that are stupidly over powered. Just for example, If superman and flash actually could move at the speed of light, and they did that on Earth, the air pressure waves from moving that fast would instantly kill anyone and destroy just about everything around them. Not to mention the ridiculous g forces inflicted on anyone they tried to "save." Its just sloppy story telling and writing and hard to take seriously in any meaningful sense.
 
Mike said:
Ok here's the thing. There are many online forums where comic book fantasy battles are discussed. Yes, super nerdy, I know. Every single one of them, has a policy of using the established feats only of that version of the character. And completely disregarding stories where heroes or villains were jobbed out purely because they did not use their powers. These rules are often called Plot induced Stupidity ,Character Induced Stupidity, and the Spiderman vs Firelord rule. Because they are such common tropes in the genre.


If you do not set up rules like that, no conversation can ever go anywhere. Because every character has nonsensical wins and losses vs other characters purely to serve the story they want to tell. When debating power sets and possible fights, we do not have a reason to have one side simply not use their powers at all. If you decide to argue using that logic you can justify anyone beating anyone, for any reason.


For example the flash has a rogues gallery that mostly has no super speed, that he continually loses to in nonsensical ways, because there is no way to write someone that can move at the speed of light losing to a normal person that isn't incredibly retarded. Even in the context of fantasy battles. So they go by feats or Spider-man can ko cosmic level beings, and captain america can ko the hulk, because reasons. Even though that's dumb as hell, based on their abilities.
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Honestly, I dont much care what the "rules" other forums have are. If you really want to distill it down, every single one of these conversations is stupid as fuck and makes zero sense.

As is the "rules" set by the universe these characters inhabit are laid out, no matter how stupid they are. Because at their core, all of these characteristics are stupid. But you don't get to pick a power and decide it's "obvious" how this power beats everything in comics, despite the fact that said power has been nullified time and time again.

Theres always a limit to how far you can stretch something. Spider-Man is never going to beat Galactus, Punisher is never going to beat Silver Surfer. There are power levels and it can be obvious which ones are fundamentally unable to compete. But Superman vs other heavy hitters is not one of them. Much less by invoking a power he's virtually never used except mostly in humorous situations and is an ability thats never been the fundamental fight changer against the most powerful heroes and villains.

Once you start arguing that "In real life such and such would happen", youve missed the point of these discussions.
 
StrikerKing said:
DC characters with their light speed abilities are so lame, and one of the many reasons why DC comics sucks overall. Yes, Marvel has their ridiculously super powered characters, but they are somewhat kept in reason. DC just throws out all laws of physics, seemingly just to have characters that are stupidly over powered. Just for example, If superman and flash actually could move at the speed of light, and they did that on Earth, the air pressure waves from moving that fast would instantly kill anyone and destroy just about everything around them. Not to mention the ridiculous g forces inflicted on anyone they tried to "save." Its just sloppy story telling and writing and hard to take seriously in any meaningful sense.
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Wasnt there a character that punched so hard he destroyed universes?
 
Mike said:
For example the flash has a rogues gallery that mostly has no super speed, that he continually loses to in nonsensical ways, because there is no way to write someone that can move at the speed of light losing to a normal person that isn't incredibly retarded. Even in the context of fantasy battles. So they go by feats or Spider-man can ko cosmic level beings, and captain america can ko the hulk, because reasons. Even though that's dumb as hell, based on their abilities.
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There is, but generally these comic book writers aren't creative enough to figure it out. Or maybe they just don't care.
 
Bob Gray said:
Honestly, I dont much care what the "rules" other forums have are. If you really want to distill it down, every single one of these conversations is stupid as fuck and makes zero sense.

As is the "rules" set by the universe these characters inhabit are laid out, no matter how stupid they are. Because at their core, all of these characteristics are stupid. But you don't get to pick a power and decide it's "obvious" how this power beats everything in comics, despite the fact that said power has been nullified time and time again.

Theres always a limit to how far you can stretch something. Spider-Man is never going to beat Galactus, Punisher is never going to beat Silver Surfer. There are power levels and it can be obvious which ones are fundamentally unable to compete. But Superman vs other heavy hitters is not one of them. Much less by invoking a power he's virtually never used except mostly in humorous situations and is an ability thats never been the fundamental fight changer against the most powerful heroes and villains.

Once you start arguing that "In real life such and such would happen", youve missed the point of these discussions.
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Without any rules or context then any convo like this is entirely meaningless. I've been reading comics for three decades, and from one issue to the next completely stupid and contradictory things will happen in the service of the story. Like Lobo beating the shit out of Superman in one comic and punching him into orbit, then getting beat up in h2h by freaking batman the next issue. Yeah, no. He wouldn't even feel the punches of a "normal" human.


Or Thor fighting Galactus to a draw. Yeah, again no. With a wave of his hand Galactus can wipe out entire sections of galaxies. Superman has been KTFO by an exploding gas station. He's also been relatively unscathed after being on a planet while it exploded, and survived nuclear explosions. If you don't clarify which version of a character is being used and what feats are acceptable, anyone can win or lose to anyone for any asinine reason.


At that point, why even have the conversation? It's silly and illogical imo to say that just because we're discussing a fantasy setting we are not allowed to use logic or critical thinking in any way. Because it's just comics. Yeah that pov is just stupid. As I said this ultra nerdy shit is discussed all over the internet between comics, manga,movies, etc. And every single forum where it is discussed has ground rules, or it's just utter nonsense.


If you go look into any game, pen and paper to digital to board, nobody says "hurr durr this stuff isn't even real bro let's do whatever and have no frame of logic or reason" Because again, that's stupid. Really, really stupid.
 
blaseblah said:
There is, but generally these comic book writers aren't creative enough to figure it out. Or maybe they just don't care.
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When one guy can move 20-28 mph tops, and the other guy can move in excess of 168,000 miles per second... The second guy will never ever under any circumstances lose to the first guy in a fight. Ever. For any reason. Just no.


It may be dumb that he's that fast, but the Flash has been that speed for many decades now.
 
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StrikerKing said:
DC characters with their light speed abilities are so lame, and one of the many reasons why DC comics sucks overall. Yes, Marvel has their ridiculously super powered characters, but they are somewhat kept in reason. DC just throws out all laws of physics, seemingly just to have characters that are stupidly over powered. Just for example, If superman and flash actually could move at the speed of light, and they did that on Earth, the air pressure waves from moving that fast would instantly kill anyone and destroy just about everything around them. Not to mention the ridiculous g forces inflicted on anyone they tried to "save." Its just sloppy story telling and writing and hard to take seriously in any meaningful sense.
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You would think the answer to that would be "don't use lame ass op DC heroes in comic fantasy battles" But for some reason a lot of people think "hey lets have him fight this other guy to the death, and he won't use most of his powers because that would be cheap"


Or people could matchup characters in the same universe when it comes to power level. It's like saying Mighty Mouse would beat Stipe. Then crying when someone points out Stipe is much stronger and would ragdoll him. Only with fantasy lazors
 
Bob Gray said:
Wasnt there a character that punched so hard he destroyed universes?
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Ryu rebooted the SF universe with a punch in one continuity, and still got his ass kicked by Akuma.
 
Bob Gray said:
Its just as asinine as moving at the speed of light in the first place.

If you want to bring up every power ever used in the history of ever, ten you also have to take into account how easily these powers have been countered.

Heroes and villains with super speed have been beaten time and time again, often by normal people. It doesnt matter what would "really" happen. We either take into account the times the superpowers have been negated or we exclude them.

As it is, super speed has never been an "I win" button among superheroes.


Besides, DC is fucking stupid with their heroes. Even when it comes down to silly board games like heroclix. Marvel has their biggest heroes cost around 170-200 points and then DC releases a Joker figure thats 200+ points. Likewise, heroes like Robin and catwoman cost more than Wolverine, X-men, etc. DC has total Little Dick Syndrome and overcompensates whenever possible.
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Weiters dont need to negate superspeed directly, they typically just dont bring it up.
 
revoltub said:
None of those powers you mentioned are enough to stop the avengers. You are greatly over powering superman in your fantasy.
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What power do any of them have to negate super speed?

The writers either would have superman not use his speed at all or would have to invent a temporary ability none of the avengers currently have to negate it. Like iron man builds a special watch none of us have heard about.

But thats slightly cheating as then you should do the same with superman and allow him to bring a device that prevents banner from changing into the hulk or a whistle that instantly dismantles iron man suite.

The point is this comversation is about their default powers and abilities and as it stands, the avengers have nothing in their base powers to negate super speed. As such superman would have his way with all of them.
 
CodeBreaker said:
The Avengers consist of:
Captain America
Iron Man
Thor
Hulk

Can they beat a bloodlusted Superman?
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Ultimate Thor can smash him 1 on 1, so the whole team might be able to as well.
 
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