best wrestlers (in the world) are gonna get beat in Future UFC/MMA WRESTLING IS NOT BEST MMA BASE

[tyrone8934]

if you have ever ran your own gym you will know that the insurance Underwriters won't allow you to teach straight MMA...

It is not in insurable for the general public under a price that is reasonable therefore in order to operate their business MMA clubs have to offer ala carte martial arts class schedules

I think you're a fucking liar. Why would insurance be more expensive for a gym that teaches MMA as its own discipline?

 

[Benoitthegr8]

After reading all 11 pages of this thread I’m generally getting what TS is saying.... wrestling isn’t the best base for MMA due to a plethora of stated reason... but... in reality it is the best base in the US due to availability/ and lack of for other disciplines (Sambo, Pankration, Shooto). If these other disciplines were available they’d produce more complete MMA fighters, than say a wrestling based competitor.

 

[-guerilla-]

After reading all 11 pages of this thread I’m generally getting what TS is saying.... wrestling isn’t the best base for MMA due to a plethora of stated reason... but... in reality it is the best base in the US due to availability/ and lack of for other disciplines (Sambo, Pankration, Shooto). If these other disciplines were available they’d produce more complete MMA fighters, than say a wrestling based competitor.

Precisely

I'll admit it's a confusing topic as wrestling is the best base for MMA in the United States at the time but it's not actually the best base for MMA in the whole world throughout the compendium of time and that is the delineation I'm trying to draw

I love wrestling

I have probably spent more time in wrestling than anything else but I'm being realistic about its overall application as martial art

The greatest thing wrestling offers from a technical aspect is that it does not rely on lapel holds and that allows your competitor to work out of virtually any position which creates a cardiovascular scramble that is unrivaled in sports

In Judo and Sambo you can get hold of that lapel and your grips are a thousand times more certain

Lapel grips also slow down the contest wildly and create a more technical scenario with less emphasis on strength explosivity and cardiovascular endurance

If we had Giless sambo, Muay Thai, pankration and Shooto in all the public school systems in the United States we wouldn't have a single MMA fighter with a wrestling background in the nation anywhere near the top levels of American MMA they would all come from the much more complete styles that I just listed

Wrestling is the not the best base for MMA... it's the best base we have available to so many people at such a low cost because it is America's last publicly-funded combat sport

Meanwhile other countries like the Soviet Bloc publicly support all kinds of martial arts and that's why they are pound-for-pound so much better at MMA than Americans

nice to have an intelligent synopsis on the subject,
I appreciate your input....

 

[-guerilla-]

I think you're a fucking liar. Why would insurance be more expensive for a gym that teaches MMA as its own discipline?

You're asking me why insurance would be more expensive for a fight sport like MMA than a traditionally practiced martial art like Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

What you should do is call a few insurance companies and call a few establishments and tell them that you want to start a MMA cagefighting club and see what kind of reactions you get

then call all these same places a few weeks later and ask them about starting a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu/ cardio kickboxing club

# recon

 

[tyrone8934]

You're asking me why insurance would be more expensive for a fight sport like MMA than a traditionally practiced martial art like Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

No, no, no, I'm not comparing an MMA gym to a BJJ gym. I'm comparing an MMA gym that teaches pure MMA to an MMA gym that teaches its subdisciplines separately. They both involve Muay Thai, wrestling, and BJJ. So why would the gym that teaches them together be more expensive to insure than the one that teaches them separately?

 

[Moro]

The sport is evolving

UFC and other American mma promotions are doing everything in their power to advantage the American wrestler because they want "all american champs" so they can sell swag to the fake wrestling NASCAR fanboys [smart business]

Wrestlers have lots of terrible habits that leave them vulnerable to good knee artists and the best submission guys

the most accomplished wrestlers are NEVER gonna be that good in mma and just get "fluffed" up for the slack jawed fanboys

These athletes have spent so many years learning to perfect their "sport grappling" they are ultra specialists

[just like SPORT BJJ guys]

profit minded gym owners push the fallacy that training in 5 different martial arts / sports = the ultimate mix for MMA

The fact IS specialists are getting pushed out of MMA

Wrestlers days are numbered

Just like the BJJ days of yore...lol

wonder when we will actually have MMA training in the USA

NOT

Muay thai + BJJ + wrestling = MMA

there are a lot of wrestlers who are simply holding on the the underbelly of MMA as their sport is slowly absorbed

desperately clinging on to MMA for relavance

the bad news is....

the ride is gonna get tougher!!!

The sport is not evolving, old guard Lawler was champ not that long ago.

 

[-guerilla-]

No, no, no, I'm not comparing an MMA gym to a BJJ gym. I'm comparing an MMA gym that teaches pure MMA to an MMA gym that teaches its subdisciplines separately. They both involve Muay Thai, wrestling, and BJJ. So why would the gym that teaches them together be more expensive to insure than the one that teaches them separately?

You have clearly never operated a martial arts gym before

they ask you a couple questions before they give you your rate

They specifically ask you if you allow Muay Thai, boxing or MMA and if you allow sparring

You can claim that you offer cardio kickboxing, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and wrestling to your insurance company and then turn around and advertise your Club as an MMA gym

Then on the down-low every once in awhile you might find a tougher individual who wants to train in legitimate MMA

of course noobs believe that you can glue kickboxing Jiu-Jitsu and wrestling together and you are an MMA trained athlete

The fact is to be a legitimate MMA gym you don't do kickboxing Brazilian jiu-jitsu or wrestling

You don't have a rank system and you don't have association fees

You most likely don't have a uniform either

Pro boxing gyms don't practice three other sports glue them together and call them boxing they just practice boxing

The fact is MMA gyms are very expensive to run and have a very low profit margin in the corporate American model

The only way these for-profit Enterprises can function is to offer a la cart martial arts menu and have a cage in the back where people can try their hand at some MMA sparring

every once in a while you might have an individual show up that exclusively wants to train in MMA however you don't have an MMA class you have an a la cart Martial Arts Club with a little bit of MMA going on with a tiny select few individuals

That person learns to box from a boxer learns to wrestle from a wrestler and learns Brazilian jiu-jitsu from guess what sport Brazilian jiu-jitsu expert

the boxer doesn't know how to kick

the wrestler doesn't know how to submit

And the BJJ expert doesn't know how to throw a knee

That's why we are falling behind in MMA because we don't even have MMA gyms we have pseudo MMA

99% of the gyms out there that advertise MMA don't have an actual MMA class... it's just a hook to get people to sign up for the much more expensive A la cart menu

 

[-guerilla-]

The sport is not evolving, old guard Lawler was champ not that long ago.

Veteran Fighters will not disappear under the onslaught of a newly evolved style of martial arts

You will simply see the slow and steady reduction of specialists in MMA

It won't be long before you no longer see wrestlers, kickboxers and Jiu-Jitsu experts in MMA

you will only see MMA athletes who train in MMA and fight in MMA exclusively

Why dilute your MMA training with something like Brazilian jiu-jitsu or kickboxing they are very incomplete systems

The only reason you are forced to train in Brazilian jiu-jitsu is because they do not offer MMA sparring Where You Are

People will suggest that you will wind up brain-damaged by practicing MMA exclusively and that would be true if you got in there and went Full Tilt on every session

The fact is you can Spar in MMA and go very very light

I am a super heavyweight and I can Spar MMA with a 10-year old girl and not hurt her because I have control over my techniques

The fact is MMA is not commonly seen because it is not profitable as compared to traditional martial arts

 

[superpunch]

You have clearly never operated a martial arts gym before

they ask you a couple questions before they give you your rate

They specifically ask you if you allow Muay Thai, boxing or MMA and if you allow sparring

You can claim that you offer cardio kickboxing, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and wrestling to your insurance company and then turn around and advertise your Club as an MMA gym

Then on the down-low every once in awhile you might find a tougher individual who wants to train in legitimate MMA

of course noobs believe that you can glue kickboxing Jiu-Jitsu and wrestling together and you are an MMA trained athlete

The fact is to be a legitimate MMA gym you don't do kickboxing Brazilian jiu-jitsu or wrestling

You don't have a rank system and you don't have association fees

You most likely don't have a uniform either

Pro boxing gyms don't practice three other sports glue them together and call them boxing they just practice boxing

The fact is MMA gyms are very expensive to run and have a very low profit margin in the corporate American model

The only way these for-profit Enterprises can function is to offer a la cart martial arts menu and have a cage in the back where people can try their hand at some MMA sparring

every once in a while you might have an individual show up that exclusively wants to train in MMA however you don't have an MMA class you have an a la cart Martial Arts Club with a little bit of MMA going on with a tiny select few individuals

That person learns to box from a boxer learns to wrestle from a wrestler and learns Brazilian jiu-jitsu from guess what sport Brazilian jiu-jitsu expert

the boxer doesn't know how to kick

the wrestler doesn't know how to submit

And the BJJ expert doesn't know how to throw a knee

That's why we are falling behind in MMA because we don't even have MMA gyms we have pseudo MMA

99% of the gyms out there that advertise MMA don't have an actual MMA class... it's just a hook to get people to sign up for the much more expensive A la cart menu

Very interesting and it makes so much sense.

I was lucky to have an mma gym in an industrial garage in college that was like $20 a month run by a bunch of ex wrestlers. They had no idea what they were doing but you could just be a nobody, show up, and they'd treat you serious and you'd get serious training.

Every other gym I've ever seen charges $200 a month, offers classes in individual martial arts, and all the striking classes feel like absolute bullshit after I've trained in a real gym before. Even if they're not billed cardio kickboxing classes, but billed as actual muay thai or boxing classes.. it's just not the same. It's all just bullshit pad work and combos on a heavy bag. No actual contact and the trainers themselves treat it like a joke, and you can feel that energy, and you feel like a joke doing it. To do any contact training, all the gyms have a "pro team" that you have to be like really experienced to train with.

But the hole in the wall place I went to in college, anyone could train hardcore, and was so much fun even as someone with no experience and bumped your learning curve times 100. I guess I understand it now. The pro teams are actually.. insurance loophole teams?

 

[-guerilla-]

Very interesting and it makes so much sense.

I was lucky to have an mma gym in an industrial garage in college that was like $20 a month run by a bunch of ex wrestlers. They had no idea what they were doing but you could just be a nobody, show up, and they'd treat you serious and you'd get serious training.

Every other gym I've ever seen charges $200 a month, offers classes in individual martial arts, and all the striking classes feel like absolute bullshit after I've trained in a real gym before. Even if they're not billed cardio kickboxing classes, but billed as actual muay thai or boxing classes.. it's just not the same. It's all just bullshit pad work and combos on a heavy bag. No actual contact and the trainers themselves treat it like a joke, and you can feel that energy, and you feel like a joke doing it. To do any contact training, all the gyms have a "pro team" that you have to be like really experienced to train with.

But the hole in the wall place I went to in college, anyone could train hardcore, and was so much fun even as someone with no experience and bumped your learning curve times 100. I guess I understand it now. The pro teams are actually.. insurance loophole teams?

Yes in 99% of the cases an insurance underwriter has no bloody idea that they're doing full contact MMA sparring at the gym they insure

In many cases gyms have to shut down due to someone being injured and or play a liability rodeo with the insurance companies

Garage gyms, community centers and public parks offer the very best training opportunities unless you come with a pedigree and can get onto a pro fight team at a major gym that is most likely lying to their insurance companies about exactly what they're doing there

I ran MMA gym out of a community center for two decades and was more worried about lawsuits and than I was about having a 400lb wrestler punch me in the face

 

[tyrone8934]

You have clearly never operated a martial arts gym before

they ask you a couple questions before they give you your rate

They specifically ask you if you allow Muay Thai, boxing or MMA and if you allow sparring

You can claim that you offer cardio kickboxing, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and wrestling to your insurance company and then turn around and advertise your Club as an MMA gym

Then on the down-low every once in awhile you might find a tougher individual who wants to train in legitimate MMA

of course noobs believe that you can glue kickboxing Jiu-Jitsu and wrestling together and you are an MMA trained athlete

The fact is to be a legitimate MMA gym you don't do kickboxing Brazilian jiu-jitsu or wrestling

You don't have a rank system and you don't have association fees

You most likely don't have a uniform either

Pro boxing gyms don't practice three other sports glue them together and call them boxing they just practice boxing

The fact is MMA gyms are very expensive to run and have a very low profit margin in the corporate American model

The only way these for-profit Enterprises can function is to offer a la cart martial arts menu and have a cage in the back where people can try their hand at some MMA sparring

every once in a while you might have an individual show up that exclusively wants to train in MMA however you don't have an MMA class you have an a la cart Martial Arts Club with a little bit of MMA going on with a tiny select few individuals

That person learns to box from a boxer learns to wrestle from a wrestler and learns Brazilian jiu-jitsu from guess what sport Brazilian jiu-jitsu expert

the boxer doesn't know how to kick

the wrestler doesn't know how to submit

And the BJJ expert doesn't know how to throw a knee

That's why we are falling behind in MMA because we don't even have MMA gyms we have pseudo MMA

99% of the gyms out there that advertise MMA don't have an actual MMA class... it's just a hook to get people to sign up for the much more expensive A la cart menu

Your posts contain so many words yet have so little substance. Let's summarize what you said. (1) Insurance companies charge more if the insured gym allows sparring. (2) Most MMA gyms lie that they don't allow sparring, but they actually do. That still doesn't answer my question. Why would an MMA gym that teaches its subdisciplines together be more expensive than one that teaches them separately? By your reasoning, a pure MMA gym could just claim to offer "cardio MMA" or some bollocks like that. If the insurance company asks what the hell that is, the gym can always say "It's MMA without sparring."

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

It's balancing out more with more strikers based fighter being able to deal with wrestlers, but a big portion of the champs will always be wrestlers. Cormier, Usman, Cejudo, Khabib are all strong wrestlers at the core. It's not just the style, but wrestlers are known to be mentality extremely strong due to the training being so hard compared to other disciplines. Say what you want but wrestling training feels much more terrible than kickbox, bjj, boxing training.

i keep on reading this on sherdog but you don't think that boxers, muay thai fighters are at least as mentally strong as wrestlers? Do you know how getting hit in the face and body KOed feels like?

 

[Salves sod Iqueac]

I'm not going to read all this, like 26 pages. THANK YOU, but no, so if anyone can help me I appreciate it.

Since when is wrestling a better base than any other? Instead of just being a matter of them being numerous.

And since when did BJJ stop being the best martial art (if there is one)? Isn't it the only one that NEEDS to be learned so you don't get your ass kicked? Even Khabib is learning ...

 

[Erratic]

Exactly.

Stipe Miocic - NCAA Division I wrestler at Cleveland State,
Jon Jones - a stand-out high school wrestler and state champion at Union-Endicott High School in upstate New York. Also a standout JUCO wrestler who was given a full ride to Iowa State University but started his mma career instead.
Robert Whittaker - won the Australian National Wrestling Championships (gold medal) and the Australian Cup.
Kamaru Usman - NCAA Division II All-American honors all three years he attended UNK and was a two-time national finalist.
Khabib Nurmagomedov - wrestled a bear when he was nine years old... 'nough said
Max Holloway - Only non-wrestler champion in the UFC
Henry Cejudo - Olympic champion in freestyle wrestling in Beijing. Cejudo was also the national HS wrestler of the year in folkstyle---TS has foolishly claimed he wrestled exclusively in freestyle.


if that doesn't prove wrestling is kling, nothing will...

Edit: in Yellow, corrections/additions made by @MartinGibson86 (Thank you!)

/thread

 

[Erratic]

You would never ko him you internet fraud

Karolin would fucking disintegrate this 'super heavyweight' fraud we keep hearing about. Karolin could literally lift 300 pound men off the floor and make them fly, OP would get fucking man handled moment Karolin grabbed him. Theres a strong reason we all know who Karelin is and we don't know who OP is.

This thread is truly bizarre lol

 

[-guerilla-]

Karolin would fucking disintegrate this 'super heavyweight' fraud we keep hearing about. Karolin could literally lift 300 pound men off the floor and make them fly, OP would get fucking man handled moment Karolin grabbed him. Theres a strong reason we all know who Karelin is and we don't know who OP is.

This thread is truly bizarre lol

I would KO Alexander Karelin in about 3 min of soccerkick MMA

Thats because Im a decent B LEVEL level MMA heavyweight and he is the greatest Greco Roman wrestler that has lived in modern times

Thats how different the sports are

Alexander Karelin cant strike at all


Wrestling is not the best base for MMA

Its Americas only publicly funded combat sport

Thats why it has that presence in American MMA

 

[Prince Nephilim]

I think the future of MMA will be more about mma gyms than individual disciplines

 

[-guerilla-]

/thread

EXCEPT

Stipe and JJ are NOT olympic caliber wrestlers while DC is

YET

they beat him in MMA because he could not use his superior wrestling to stop their strikes

# wrestling not best MMA base

# recon 101

# thread confirmed

 

[D 1 Wrestler]

EXCEPT

Stipe and JJ are NOT olympic caliber wrestlers while DC is

YET

they beat him in MMA because he could not use his superior wrestling to stop their strikes

# wrestling not best MMA base

# recon 101

# thread confirmed

Jon beat DC because his wrestling kept it standing he also never tried to make the Olympics so well never know if he was Olympic caliber or not , same with stipe

 

[-guerilla-]

I think the future of MMA will be more about mma gyms than individual disciplines

I think the future of MMA will be more about mma gyms than individual disciplines

MMA has to get away from sub disciplines

sub disciplines dilute the sport

kickboxing Jiu-Jitsu and wrestling glued together create an inferior B level discount form of MMA

It must be handled like boxing to evolve to the next level but that's not going to happen

have you ever trained in a boxing gym??

I have, they where pretty scary places and modern insurance regulators wouldn't support that SPORT in america

Boxing is barely hanging on due to its value to the gambling community

Its all about risk management

https://www.fightsaga.com/fightsaga/news/boxing-s-popularity-decline-in-the-u-s-the-real-reason-why