best wrestlers (in the world) are gonna get beat in Future UFC/MMA WRESTLING IS NOT BEST MMA BASE

[Mahkor]

New Masvidal training video:

 

[-guerilla-]

It makes bad takedowns more dangerous but it's better for wrestlers since they will be able to use them more often and for longer periods of time.

It is conventional wisdom that if a wrestler can hold you down and use knees they have quite an advantage
however
In order to throw a heavy knee you have to raise up off someone and this allows them an opportunity to escape or at least shrimp in

We sparred Vale tudo style for 20 years at my MMA gym without a single Serious injury

I can remember getting hit with knees from Top crossside ( bottom man throwing the knee ...top man absorbing it)
to both body and head...they are very effective

however (as you touched on) the major advantages in the ground scramble

Sloppy or stuffed shots are a huge knee / kick opportunity however there are hundreds of other positions on the ground where your knees and legs can deliver phenomenally powerful strikes

Especially as anti butt scooter
(sakuraba 101)

Having spent half my youth in Hawaii I learned how to throw knees with the best of them

They are wildly underused in American MMA

I think the introduction of the Chute boxe guys to MMA petrified the big promoters as they had finally learned how to solve the Brazilian jiu-jitsu riddle and push all American wrestlers to the top

 

[beastman]

Everyone will come from full contact karate in the future

 

[YewJan]

It was one knee man

 

[-guerilla-]

A bit of wrestling trivia

Daniel Cormier and Henry Cejudo
=
0-5 against Iranian wrestlers in freestyle

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Cejudo

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Cormier

 

[-guerilla-]

It was one knee man

this thread is not about one fight

this thread is about a fallacy that is being pushed all over the MMA world for many years

wrestling is NOT the best base for MMA

 

[-guerilla-]

Everyone will come from full contact karate in the future

Well actually Adesanya, GSP and Jon Jones are karate Strikers

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...ate-in-ufc-adesanya-gsp-jones-crocop.3912081/

 

[BJJ_Rage]

IMO we only guide fighters

We cant create them

Takes me about 5 min to determine if they can hang in competition

Its true that some are more self reliant/tougher than others

You can teach them techniques and fight theory but you cant make a coward a fighter

on that we agree, but the wrold isnt dived between cowards and brave man, most people are in between, but a big ass pussy isnt going to turn into thiago marreta thats for sure.

 

[-guerilla-]

T.S. has said all this stuff before. Supposedly there's a huge conspiracy to keep the best Russian, Iranian, etc. wrestlers out of MMA because they'd beat all Americans. But why aren't we seeing them dominate outside the US in M-1, Fight Nights, OneFC, etc? I guarantee Dana or Coker would be interested in these guys if they were as dominant as he says. They've brought over plenty of other non-U.S. fighters.

The bottom line is not many non-US wrestlers have interest in MMA, and those that have (outside Khabib) haven't had that much success--see the "Janitor" and other examples from early 2000s. There's no conspiracy.

LOL

"it's a big tin foil hat conspiracy"

then how come nobody can name any freestyle wrestlers in MMA???

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...restlers-in-the-ufc-past-and-present.3969399/

 

[-guerilla-]

on that we agree, but the wrold isnt dived between cowards and brave man, most people are in between, but a big ass pussy isnt going to turn into thiago marreta thats for sure.

Certainly true

I have been surprised before

I remember a guy walking through the front door of my MMA gym and guys literally laughing at him as he looked exactly like Shaggy from Scooby Doo...he smelld heavily of cannabis, wore tydye shirts and didnt own a piece of MMA swag gear

about three minutes after he started rolling though it was apparent that something was up with this guy as he was laying guys out left and right with a phenomenally effective Triangle/ armbar series

He went on to be a tough-as-nails MMA fighter that represented our club for years

you can't tell by looking... that's for sure but you sure as hell CAN tell by Rolling

 

[Leoooo]

well all you said is irrelevant since wrestling is the best base for mma and will continue to be so.
wrestling > all other combat sports

MMA is the best base for MMA.
Wrestling is the best base for the unified rules, since it favors American wrestlers extremely.
But wrestlers don’t do nearly as good under other MMA rules.

 

[tramendous]

It makes bad takedowns more dangerous but it's better for wrestlers since they will be able to use them more often and for longer periods of time.

i dont think so. Most G&P finishes in pride were still not knees but traditional punches. Most of the people who utilized kicks/stomps/knees on the ground were strikers. Not only can you not knee wrestlers, you can't upkick them when they are in your guard, you cant utilize heel kicks to the back of ribs/kidneys in guard. A gassed out wrestler who shoots for a takedown and misses is dead from soccer kicks/knees. Wrestlers can use them too they are is still a smaller margin of error for them without it. Opponents are forced to grapple with them.

 

[-guerilla-]

MMA is the best base for MMA.
Wrestling is the best base for the unified rules, since it favors American wrestlers extremely.
But wrestlers don’t do nearly as good under other MMA rules.

Some argue that MMA is not a style

I disagree

MMA = Shooto/ pankratIon

PankratIon is the name of the martial art

Shooto is the name of the sport

 

[Ancient Warrior]

I never said wrestling was a poor base

I said wrestling wasn't the best base

Do you think wrestling is a better base than pankration and shooto?

That’s a hard thing to say because Pankration and Shooto claim to teach all the fundamentals, but really don’t center on the same balance and physical control. I think they’re a more complete fighting art in itself, but they’re not a better base for building a superior fighter.

Besides, we’ve seen the earlier UFC’s and wrestlers in general used to clean up. They may not have known what to do with guys once they got them down, but they controlled the hell out of guys that were superior strikers and even submission specialists. That was of course until fighters started training to counter wrestling.

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

i dont think so. Most G&P finishes in pride were still not knees but traditional punches. Most of the people who utilized kicks/stomps/knees on the ground were strikers. Not only can you not knee wrestlers, you can't upkick them when they are in your guard, you cant utilize heel kicks to the back of ribs/kidneys in guard. A gassed out wrestler who shoots for a takedown and misses is dead from soccer kicks/knees. Wrestlers can use them too they are is still a smaller margin of error for them without it. Opponents are forced to grapple with them.

I didn't say that knees on the ground became more common than GnP with hands in Pride, I said that most people who landed knees on the ground in Pride were wrestlers/the better wrestler. I don't know if you intended to write a strawman argument but you did.

Knees on the ground favors the guy more likely to be on top which is the guy with better wrestling. The Sprawl position isn't one that lasts a long time, north/south and side control are positions that can be held for a long time so you see way more knees from those positions than from someone sprawling.

You're also adding in kicks which wasn't something I talked about.

 

[tramendous]

I didn't say that knees on the ground became more common than GnP with hands in Pride, I said that most people who landed knees on the ground in Pride were wrestlers/the better wrestler. I don't know if you intended to write a strawman argument but you did.

Knees on the ground favors the guy more likely to be on top which is the guy with better wrestling. The Sprawl position isn't one that lasts a long time, north/south and side control are positions that can be held for a long time so you see way more knees from those positions than from someone sprawling.

You're also adding in kicks which wasn't something I talked about.

I'm going to have agree. if we are strictly talking about knees and not kicks I'd imagine wrestlers would be better at securing positions to land them than other fighters but at least it gives them another weapon to end fights with and do damage than just controlling people. One of the things I loved in Pride was how much each position on the ground mattered. Like North South is completely useless in unified rules other than to secure some specific submissions. Even side control was more dangerous.

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

I'm going to have agree. if we are strictly talking about knees and not kicks I'd imagine wrestlers would be better at securing positions to land them than other fighters but at least it gives them another weapon to end fights with and do damage than just controlling people. One of the things I loved in Pride was how much each position on the ground mattered. Like North South is completely useless in unified rules other than to secure some specific submissions. Even side control was more dangerous.

Yes, kicks and stomps would probably generally favor the best sprawl and brawlers cause if you drop someone you can hit them again much faster than if you had to use your hands which is why most of the soccer kicking and stomping in Pride was from guys like Wanderlei, Gomi, and Shogun. I agree about the ruleset, it made the ground game a lot more dynamic and there are way less positions that are safe on the ground.

 

[ermac88]

The sport is evolving

UFC and other American mma promotions are doing everything in their power to advantage the American wrestler because they want "all american champs" so they can sell swag to the fake wrestling NASCAR fanboys [smart business]

Wrestlers have lots of terrible habits that leave them vulnerable to good knee artists and the best submission guys

the most accomplished wrestlers are NEVER gonna be that good in mma and just get "fluffed" up for the slack jawed fanboys

These athletes have spent so many years learning to perfect their "sport grappling" they are ultra specialists

[just like SPORT BJJ guys]

profit minded gym owners push the fallacy that training in 5 different martial arts / sports = the ultimate mix for MMA

The fact IS specialists are getting pushed out of MMA

Wrestlers days are numbered

Just like the BJJ days of yore...lol

wonder when we will actually have MMA training in the USA

NOT

Muay thai + BJJ + wrestling = MMA

there are a lot of wrestlers who are simply holding on the the underbelly of MMA as their sport is slowly absorbed

desperately clinging on to MMA for relavance

the bad news is....

the ride is gonna get tougher!!!

Cormier- wrestler
Jones- wrestler
Usman- wrestler
Khabib- wrestler

 

[Block Obama]

It used to be the best base

 

[-guerilla-]

Cormier- wrestler
Jones- wrestler
Usman- wrestler
Khabib- wrestler

Yes, thanks for reminding me....

So if Cormier had an identical twin who trained in shooto, combat sambo and pankratIon instead of wrestling who would win in MMA

The DC that was only wrestling or the DC who trained in combat sambo, pankratIon and shooto??

That's the question this thread is asking

Of course the DC that only trained in wrestling only would be at a massive disadvantage

Thats because wrestling IS NOT the best base for MMA

Shooto
PankratIon
Combat Sambo

One or all of these are
vastly a better base for MMA competition

however they are not offered free in the public school system, you have to be well off to train in those styles

They are not free in the public school system

Wrestling is...

that's why wrestlers dominate American MMA

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-real-reason-wrestlers-dominate-the-ufc-american-mma.3959991/