best wrestlers (in the world) are gonna get beat in Future UFC/MMA WRESTLING IS NOT BEST MMA BASE

[-guerilla-]

Sorry, but I also think wrestling is probably the best base.

It highlights core strength, balance, general opponent control and very result oriented training. No ideologies, no woo woo, just concrete results. And it’s competitors must display a high level work ethic and determination in order to be successful.

It might not be good as a complete art because they don’t incorporate finishing holds and pin someone as a final objective, but as a base in itself, it’s probably the best.

Drawing a comparison to mma success is not a reflection on wrestling imo. The most successful fighters have to have a completely new arsenal to compete in mma. Saying wrestling is a poor base because certain fighters have found defeat, is cherry picking facts.

I never said wrestling was a poor base

I said wrestling wasn't the best base

Do you think wrestling is a better base than pankration and shooto?

 

[-guerilla-]

one flying knee at the beginning of the fight lands on a wrestler with the worst striking defense and offense in all of mma and all of a sudden wrestling isn't a good base for mma hahahah.....idiots.

Who said wrestling wasn't a good base for MMA??

I said wrestling wasn't the best base for MMA?

reading is fundamental

 

[-guerilla-]

Rory McDonald is the epitome of this "pure MMA" fighter (no real specialist background). You see both the good and bad side of it in him. His well-roundedness helps him at times (outwrestling Lima, outstriking Maia) but also hurts him because he has no real specialty or "super powers." That's why he couldn't beat a 41-year Fitch (very solid college wrestling background) and has fits when he faces strikers with good TDD (prime Lawler and Wonderboy).

It's a Joe Rogan myth that Rory was the first "pure MMA" fighter, though. Many of the late 90s/early 2000s fighters had no specialty and were generalists (Forrest Griffin, Rich Franklin, Heath Herring, Evan Tanner, etc.).

But the T.S. is very biased and has a lot of holes in his thinking. That's been clear in other threads.

So do you think wrestling is the best base for MMA?

Better than shooto and pankration?

You should really study the Japanese fighters to get a handle on this thread as they are better wrestlers than we are
(per capita)

Yet wrestling doesn't dominate their MMA

 

[mkt]

So do you think wrestling is the best base for MMA?

Better than shooto and pankration?

You should really study the Japanese fighters to get a handle on this thread as they are better wrestlers than we are
(per capita)

Yet wrestling doesn't dominate their MMA

And the best JMMA fighters who have come to UFC, Bellator, SF, etc. have NEVER dominated in those orgs. Not ever. Not in 25 years. Case closed.

 

[ralek4grammy]

You make the most money off swag and you make the most swag when you have domestic champions

they would prefer them to stand and bang that's for certain but if they had the choice between a Russian, Muslim or Mexican Striker
VS
an "All-American" wrestler

they're going to be hoping the American to win every time

But why do we necessarily make the automatic connection between American and wrestler? While there is a higher chance of these two running in parallel, it's not mandatory.

 

[mkt]

But why do we necessarily make the automatic connection between American and wrestler? While there is a higher chance of these two running in parallel, it's not mandatory.

T.S. has said all this stuff before. Supposedly there's a huge conspiracy to keep the best Russian, Iranian, etc. wrestlers out of MMA because they'd beat all Americans. But why aren't we seeing them dominate outside the US in M-1, Fight Nights, OneFC, etc? I guarantee Dana or Coker would be interested in these guys if they were as dominant as he says. They've brought over plenty of other non-U.S. fighters.

The bottom line is not many non-US wrestlers have interest in MMA, and those that have (outside Khabib) haven't had that much success--see the "Janitor" and other examples from early 2000s. There's no conspiracy.

 

[ralek4grammy]

T.S. has said all this stuff before. Supposedly there's a huge conspiracy to keep the best Russian, Iranian, etc. wrestlers out of MMA because they'd beat all Americans. But why aren't we seeing them dominate outside the US in M-1, Fight Nights, OneFC, etc? I guarantee Dana or Coker would be interested in these guys if they were as dominant as he says. They've brought over plenty of other non-U.S. fighters.

The bottom line is not many non-US wrestlers have interest in MMA, and those that have (outside Khabib) haven't had that much success--see the "Janitor" and other examples from early 2000s. There's no conspiracy.

Ah, ok.

 

[-guerilla-]

Wrestlers days will never be numbered in mma. It's all about being able to blend it all together and time things correctly.

Wrestling as a style will always exist
that is certain
but you won't have the very best wrestlers coming over and dominating MMA...

they would if wrestling was a superior style to all others

The money difference is phenomenal

at one point that payday would make it happen

 

[-guerilla-]

T.S. has said all this stuff before. Supposedly there's a huge conspiracy to keep the best Russian, Iranian, etc. wrestlers out of MMA because they'd beat all Americans. But why aren't we seeing them dominate outside the US in M-1, Fight Nights, OneFC, etc? I guarantee Dana or Coker would be interested in these guys if they were as dominant as he says. They've brought over plenty of other non-U.S. fighters.

The bottom line is not many non-US wrestlers have interest in MMA, and those that have (outside Khabib) haven't had that much success--see the "Janitor" and other examples from early 2000s. There's no conspiracy.

It's no conspiracy
it's just smart business
domestic Champions make the most money for the organization
everybody knows that

Nobody wants a bunch of foreign wrestlers to come over and take all their MMA paychecks

Especially when they know that they beat your guys in wrestling in the Olympics,
World cup And World championship

The reason wrestlers don't dominate Japanese MMA is because Japanese MMA is wildly more well-rounded as their country invented the sport long before we picked up on it

they don't have that skill Gap

their martial arts athletes don't train at strip malls under gyms that sweat liability insurance

You have to be a complete moron to think AMERICAN MMA PROMOTIONS would want some big Russian or Islamic guy to come over and knock out Brock Lesnar

And they're smart enough to know that they can

You have to be naive to think that American MMA promotions are looking for the world's greatest Fighters

they're looking for the world's most promotable American champions

The hardcore fact is Americans don't even dominate UFC

America's largest Mixed Martial Arts Tournament

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/are-americans-falling-behind-in-mma.3894589/

 

[-guerilla-]

And the best JMMA fighters who have come to UFC, Bellator, SF, etc. have NEVER dominated in those orgs. Not ever. Not in 25 years. Case closed.

Oh yeah

then how come we haven't gone over there and dominated their MMA?

There's a big difference in our weight classes

http://nbakki.hatenablog.com/entry/Average_Weight_of_Japanese_Men_2015

 

[-guerilla-]

But why do we necessarily make the automatic connection between American and wrestler? While there is a higher chance of these two running in parallel, it's not mandatory.

I think American wrestlers broke the
"BJJ curse" and ever since then the UFC has done everything they could to make sure that American wrestlers win their tournaments

Trust me

if we had shooto (instead of wrestling)
in all the American public school systems it would be a no-contest situation...BJJ (or anybody else) would have never won a fight

Shooto and pankratIon are 100times a better base for MMA

Wrestling is all we had so it had to fill the gap!

 

[mkt]

Oh yeah

then how come we haven't gone over there and dominated their MMA?

There's a big difference in our weight classes

http://nbakki.hatenablog.com/entry/Average_Weight_of_Japanese_Men_2015

Ever here of Pride? As for weight classes, DJ just went to an Asian org and won his first fight. And that's after losing his UFC title and being a bit old (32 is getting up in age for the lightest weight classes). As for the best UFC fighters not going to Japan and dominating the MMA, there's simply not been the incentive after Pride.

 

[Huligani]

 

[BJJ_Rage]

I have been coaching 20 years

You cant MAKE somebody a good fighter

You cant MAKE somebody tough

You cant MAKE sombody compeditive

You can only teach good fighters to fight smarter, give them opportunity to be compeditive by helping them take good matches and offer advice on how to act when they get hit.

some take construction much better than others but at the end of the day there's this old redneck saying it's the size of the fight and the dog

Sports dont create toughness they REVEAL it....

It was always there

Just like you cant teach a coward to fight!

you cant make someone a good fighter? what do you think people is when they walk in the room fresh with absolutely no sense of fighting? learn how to fight.

I kind of see your point, but saying you cant teach someone how is wquite silly. You can make people good fighters, you can make them tougher and you can make someone competitive, you probably cant make a worll champ if the person isnt born with it in him. But the rest? of you course you can. Ive been coaching for 6 years, and some of my studentes couldnt do jack shit for their life. Many end up fighting mma (locally) and I can tell you those guys have lernt how to fight (along with training striking also)

 

[boingyman]

How will wrestling not be the best base when it's likely the most important tool that can dictate the fight?

 

[-guerilla-]

you cant make someone a good fighter? what do you think people is when they walk in the room fresh with absolutely no sense of fighting? learn how to fight.

I kind of see your point, but saying you cant teach someone how is wquite silly. You can make people good fighters, you can make them tougher and you can make someone competitive, you probably cant make a worll champ if the person isnt born with it in him. But the rest? of you course you can. Ive been coaching for 6 years, and some of my studentes couldnt do jack shit for their life. Many end up fighting mma (locally) and I can tell you those guys have lernt how to fight (along with training striking also)

IMO we only guide fighters

We cant create them

Takes me about 5 min to determine if they can hang in competition

Its true that some are more self reliant/tougher than others

You can teach them techniques and fight theory but you cant make a coward a fighter

 

[-guerilla-]

Ever here of Pride? As for weight classes, DJ just went to an Asian org and won his first fight. And that's after losing his UFC title and being a bit old (32 is getting up in age for the lightest weight classes). As for the best UFC fighters not going to Japan and dominating the MMA, there's simply not been the incentive after Pride.

I have sited pride multiple times in this THREAD

Japanese fighters are wildly more well rounded

Americans don't dominate the UFC much less anybody else's tournaments

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/are-americans-falling-behind-in-mma.3894589/

 

[-guerilla-]

How will wrestling not be the best base when it's likely the most important tool that can dictate the fight?

Its not the BEST

its the best we HAVE

Big difference

2 clones

One wrestling for 10 years

One shooto/pankratIon/combat sambo 10 years

Shooto/pankratIon/combat sambo wins EVERY TIME

Wrestling is NOT THE BEST BASE for MMA

 

[mkt]

Japanese fighters are wildly more well rounded

Americans don't dominate the UFC much less anybody else's tournaments
/

Cormier (before him Stipe), Jones, Usman, Cejudo (2 weight classes). 5 out 8 belts held by Americans with wrestling creds and strong wrestling games. Who are these well-rounded Japanese fighters who can beat them?

 

[-guerilla-]

So if those guys trained shooto instead of wrestling the SHOOTO GUYS would beat the wrestling version of themselves

Wrestling is not the best base for MMA