Batman vs. Daredevil - Who wins?

[Mike]

I can understand folks being up in arms with rampant fan boys of Batman, but this isn't a case where it's justified.

Point blank. Batman has equal physical skills and more toys to take out DD.

Except they're not equal, DD is much, much faster. Speed matters. It's the same reason spiderman would beat the hit out of Cap

 

[DoomPatrol]

No, no he does not. Every Superman vs Batman encounter starts with Batman utilizing kryptonite based traps and taking everything super serial, while Superman is basically just playing around with him, and inexplicably forgetting that he's literally thousands of times faster than humans.

You're literally talking about one instance, not every time, and Batman always win's by intelligence. That's his whole shtick. Besides that, my point still stands that Batman is taking on god-level opponents in the Justice League and Daredevil is barely beating up normal people.

 

[Mike]

Batman is one of the most ridiculous characters when it comes to inconsistency. He beats up Lobo. Hmm, Lobo punched superman into space during one fight, and has kicked the shit out of him several times. Is this a powerup, does batman have super strength now?


Next issue Mongul shows up, and Batman is completely helpless and is basically just there, so no. No power up.

 

[DoomPatrol]

Batman is one of the most ridiculous characters when it comes to inconsistency. He beats up Lobo. Hmm, Lobo punched superman into space during one fight, and has kicked the shit out of him several times. Is this a powerup, does batman have super strength now?


Next issue Mongul shows up, and Batman is completely helpless and is basically just there, so no. No power up.

You can say that about Superman too. Sometimes he's literally planet busting without breaking a sweat. Other times catching a something a few thousand pounds is difficult. He goes from literal god status to meta-human based on the need for the script.

 

[Mike]

You're literally talking about one instance, not every time, and Batman always win's by intelligence. That's his whole shtick. Besides that, my point still stands that Batman is taking on god-level opponents in the Justice League and Daredevil is barely beating up normal people.

Daredevil fights superhumans on a fairly regular basis, and does quite well. When written realistically Batman is often no help in such fights, he doesn't possess the power to hurt superhuman beings.


Then randomly suddenly his batarangs can hurt Amazo, a guy that can take punches from superman. Or he can beat up Lobo. It isn't about smarts, it's about him doing things he realistically shouldn't be able to do. Characters like Shiva or Cassie Cain kick his ass purely through martial art ability, yet he can somehow hurt Superman, or withstand even one of his punches, or keep track of him when he moves near light speed on a whim.


Nah. I love Cap, but they do the same thing with him. I have an issue where he beats the hell out of the Hulk in a flashback, just because he's Captain America Dammit. You have to distinguish random jobbing from consistent powers and fighting ability.

 

[minute bull]

 

[Mike]

You can say that about Superman too. Sometimes he's literally planet busting without breaking a sweat. Other times catching a something a few thousand pounds is difficult. He goes from literal god status to meta-human based on the need for the script.

Well Supermans power fluctuations are actually written into the story. During the original crisis on infinite earth and the new 52 they basically created a new superman, and old Superman feats were then attributed to Supermen from alternate universes.


DC has a lot of reboots because their power levels are absurd, eventually there's too much power creep and they can't write realistic villains anymore.


Before the last Reboot Supes and the Flash were basically at god tier again. That's why versions of the character are important. Even Marvel, which is on a far lower power tier, has doubled Spidermans strength over the years.


Even the weakest superman (barring new 52, i've never read that so can't comment) has no issue with a few tons though.

 

[BEER]

Except they're not equal, DD is much, much faster. Speed matters. It's the same reason spiderman would beat the hit out of Cap

But the speed won't be helpful if Batman is able to quickly figure out that DD is blind, which would absolutely happen.

Once that happens, Batman's intelligence in combat would bring him victory.

And you're arguing inconsistency in comics, but it's no different for Daredevil. His "enhanced speed" isn't consistently a thing. His weakness to sonic weapons is inconsistent.

When you break it down to the core ideas of characters, Batman will always be better equipped to win the fight.

 

[gatchaman]

Batman consistently loses to bullet timers, and DD is a bullet timer. Sonics will not help Batman because DD can focus his senses. DD fights bad guys who use loud guns and explosives. DD can focus enough to locate a man by his cough in Manhattan. It's actually DD who would exploit the senses battle by always knowing the location of sneaking Batman by Batman's heartbeat.

 

[Mike]

Here's a link to a reddit DD respect thread.


https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthreads/comments/2dzadn/respect_the_man_without_fear_daredevil/


Some notable feats:


1. Fighting evenly with Sabretooth and even gaining the upper hand, including punching him through a brick wall more than once.


2. Using his club to deflect gunfire form multiple targets. That's right, not just dodging a gunmans aim but standing in the path of a bullet and having the reflexes to swat it away, and he does this a LOT.


3. Beating up tombstone, and using a sledgehammer to ko him since he has low level invulnerability.


4. Expert tracking through sound, avoiding snipers purely through sound.


5. Curbstomping the punisher and bullseye, fighting Captain America to stalemate.


6. Koing the kingpin using both resourcefulness and brutality.


7. Fighting off The Taskmaster, one of the MU's best h2h fighters, while beating up several other villains simultaneously.


8. Dodging automatic weapons fire out in the open at point blank range fro multiple shooters.

 

[Mike]

Batman consistently loses to bullet timers, and DD is a bullet timer. Sonics will not help Batman because DD can focus his senses. DD fights bad guys who use loud guns and explosives. DD can focus enough to locate a man by his cough in Manhattan.

This is what I'm saying. People are just picking against Daredevil because he's less popular. He's beaten guys that are faster and stronger than Batman, that are also high level fighters.


There's not a slight speed difference, Daredevil is way faster and has ALWAYS been consistently portrayed as being way faster.

 

[gatchaman]

But the speed won't be helpful if Batman is able to quickly figure out that DD is blind, which would absolutely happen.

Once that happens, Batman's intelligence in combat would bring him victory.

And you're arguing inconsistency in comics, but it's no different for Daredevil. His "enhanced speed" isn't consistently a thing. His weakness to sonic weapons is inconsistent.

When you break it down to the core ideas of characters, Batman will always be better equipped to win the fight.

DD has repeated the bullet deflecting feat in may different stories, even deflecting bullets back at the attacker, even back at the attacker's weapon. The feat is only inconsistent in the sense that non-meta bad guys occasionally land punches and kicks on DD, which should never happen.

 

[Mike]

But the speed won't be helpful if Batman is able to quickly figure out that DD is blind, which would absolutely happen.

Once that happens, Batman's intelligence in combat would bring him victory.

And you're arguing inconsistency in comics, but it's no different for Daredevil. His "enhanced speed" isn't consistently a thing. His weakness to sonic weapons is inconsistent.

When you break it down to the core ideas of characters, Batman will always be better equipped to win the fight.

His speed sure is consistent. The reddit thread I linked has feats from a few years ago, back to the mid 80's. /Matt being considerably faster than regular humans isn't a fluke thing, it's a core part of the character much like Spider-man.


Sonics can hurt him but he can often fight through them and win. I call bs on it being obvious he's blind. Lots of characters wear masks it doesn't look like you could see through, and longtime allies and enemies have been surprised to discover he's blind.


And people act as if Matt is some brawler. Using resourcefulness AND brutality to win fights has been a part of the character for decades. He's an exceptional strategist and will do whatever it takes to win a fight, no advantage to Bruce there.

 

[BEER]

DD has repeated the bullet deflecting feat in may different stories, even deflecting bullets back at the attacker, even back at the attacker's weapon. The feat is only inconsistent in the sense that non-meta bad guys occasionally land punches and kicks on DD, which should never happen.

I can dig up Batman deflecting and dodging bullets and also getting kicked in the fucking head.

That doesn't change the fact that it's inconsistent. Batman has the better side of a century on his side. You can find dozens of inconsistencies.

You can find the same inconsistencies in any characters. You take the most stripped down versions of both characters, and Batman wins.

You take the most OP versions of both characters, and Batman wins.

You might be able to make an argument for DD in the middle ground.

 

[Mike]

DD has repeated the bullet deflecting feat in may different stories, even deflecting bullets back at the attacker, even back at the attacker's weapon. The feat is only inconsistent in the sense that non-meta bad guys occasionally land punches and kicks on DD, which should never happen.

Exactly, it's the same as non speedsters somehow hitting the flash or superman or Spider-man. It happens because it's necessary for the story. Hell most of the flashes enemies have NO enhanced speed and still give him a fight somehow.

 

[BEER]

His speed sure is consistent. The reddit thread I linked has feats from a few years ago, back to the mid 80's. /Matt being considerably faster than regular humans isn't a fluke thing, it's a core part of the character much like Spider-man.


Sonics can hurt him but he can often fight through them and win. I call bs on it being obvious he's blind. Lots of characters wear masks it doesn't look like you could see through, and longtime allies and enemies have been surprised to discover he's blind.


And people act as if Matt is some brawler. Using resourcefulness AND brutality to win fights has been a part of the character for decades. He's an exceptional strategist and will do whatever it takes to win a fight, no advantage to Bruce there.

Batman is considerably faster than "regular humans".

Batman is just as much of a strategist, if not more so, than Daredevil.

Batman's attention to detail is what sets him apart from most opponents who are unable to think and process nuanced information in a fight. His biggest strength in combat is his ability to parse his opponent's weaknesses on the fly. Daredevil would very likely have an early advantage, but as the fight goes on, Batman would absolutely figure out that he's blind. Whether by noticing DD's mannerisms or just noticing that DD isn't impacted/impeded by smoke devices or any other number of small things, Batman would figure it out. And once that weakness is figured out, it's all downhill.

What people have said here isn't just "Batman would win herp derp", but explain how, hypothetically, he would have a combat edge over DD.

You just say "DD is fast, smart, and brutal".

HOW does he beat Batman? What weaknesses does Batman have that can be exploited?

 

[Mike]

I can dig up Batman deflecting and dodging bullets and also getting kicked in the fucking head.

That doesn't change the fact that it's inconsistent. Batman has the better side of a century on his side. You can find dozens of inconsistencies.

You can find the same inconsistencies in any characters. You take the most stripped down versions of both characters, and Batman wins.

You take the most OP versions of both characters, and Batman wins.

You might be able to make an argument for DD in the middle ground.

Dodging aim by jumping into the shadows =/= dodging point blank automatic weapons fire out in the open, and repeatedly deflecting bullets at point blank range. That's the kind of thing Wonder Woman does, not Batman.


Dodging aim =/= deflecting automatic weapons firing at you from 2 feet away, repeatedly for decades. Bullet timing isn't a phrase we made up, it's something that's been used as a way to measure speed in these debates for decades now. Being a bullet timer, DD is much, much faster than Batman and it isn't debatable. People with far more comics knowledge than you or I have done the research to prove it using scans for years, scans across many years that aren't one off flukes.



Daredevils speed and agility aren't really inconsistent, they've been a key part of every version of the character going back to the 60's.

 

[BEER]

Dodging aim by jumping into the shadows =/= dodging point blank automatic weapons fire out in the open, and repeatedly deflecting bullets at point blank range. That's the kind of thing Wonder Woman does, not Batman.


Dodging aim =/= deflecting automatic weapons firing at you from 2 feet away, repeatedly for decades. Bullet timing isn't a phrase we made up, it's something that's been used as a way to measure speed in these debates for decades now. Being a bullet timer, DD is much, much faster than Batman and it isn't debatable. People with far more comics knowledge than you or I have done the research to prove it using scans for years, scans across many years that aren't one off flukes.



Daredevils speed and agility aren't really inconsistent, they've been a key part of every version of the character going back to the 60's.

Now what happens is we debate the dumbest aspect of all of this:

The inconsistency due to writing. You've clearly said Daredevil gets hit by non-super humans, but you just say "oh it's because it's necessary for the story".

That is the same reason he's able to deflect or dodge bullets from close range. It's necessary for the story.

It's a silly argument that doesn't answer any of my questions about HOW Daredevil would win.

 

[moonwolf]

Wizard magazine did a feature on this back in the day. Batman won due to eventually figuring out that Daredevil was blind and then using that to his advantage. Not gonna argue with Wizard.

 

[Mike]

Batman is considerably faster than "regular humans".

Batman is just as much of a strategist, if not more so, than Daredevil.

Batman's attention to detail is what sets him apart from most opponents who are unable to think and process nuanced information in a fight. His biggest strength in combat is his ability to parse his opponent's weaknesses on the fly. Daredevil would very likely have an early advantage, but as the fight goes on, Batman would absolutely figure out that he's blind. Whether by noticing DD's mannerisms or just noticing that DD isn't impacted/impeded by smoke devices or any other number of small things, Batman would figure it out. And once that weakness is figured out, it's all downhill.

What people have said here isn't just "Batman would win herp derp", but explain how, hypothetically, he would have a combat edge over DD.

You just say "DD is fast, smart, and brutal".

HOW does he beat Batman? What weaknesses does Batman have that can be exploited?

I never said batman isn't a strategist, that point was to counter people unfamiliar with Matt acting as if he's some standard brawler. When in fact he's a high level fighter and strategist, and wins against ridiculous odds the same way batman does, smarts and will to win.


As to how he wins, he wins the same way people like Deathstroke have beaten him. By being a relatively equal fighter, but much faster and with the strength to hit him hard enough to put him down.


When he runs into Deathstroke he often doesn't pull some magical way to win out of his ass. Often, he gets his ass kicked. Because Deathstroke is on hig level in fighting ability, but has enhanced speed and reflexes just like Matt.

Batman is no regular human, but he is a human. Daredevil actually has superhuman abilities and is on the same tier of fighting ability.