An Objective take at ''GOAT'' debate

[Bobby Boulders]

No I didn't say your wrong, I said your off topic

No, the post I made initially was plenty on topic. And that you're wanting to debate who is the GOAT proves that point of the post. TS is saying it isn't debatable, and his own thread on it proves that theory wrong, which was the exact point of my post. Then you tried to tell me that my personal criteria for greatness is wrong. There isn't a set definition of greatness. It is subjective, and that is yet again, the point of my initial post.

 

[Bodil]

Good effort, these attempts at quantifying greatness are always fun to look over, even if they're never quite as objective as they're claimed to be.

1.
GSP has 11 title fight victories at WW, and one at MW. He has competed in 14 title fights. Your "16" wins for him doesn't make much sense (even though he is my personal GOAT).

15 title fights in the UFC. You are wrong. Cute attempt though.

 

[Rum]

15 title fights in the UFC. You are wrong. Cute attempt though.

Oh, you're an counting interim belt and the "UCC Welterweight Championship" in his "16-2"?

 

[ifindgifsforjackslack]

Cool another of these threads.

No one except a loser will read all that horseshit, TS.

Now I feel like a loser. Could have let me know before I read it...

 

[dildos]

No such thing as prime. Only your first and last fight. If a fighter loses at 24 or at 38, they both count as losses. How are you going to objectively decide when a fighter leaves his prime? Spoiler alert: you can't.



It's literally a 2 mins read at most, perhaps you should get your HS diploma.



Objective = numbers, stats,

Weak troll.



Yes, he is wrong and should not be taken seriously. 26-17-1 (2) isn't a GOAT record.



Weight classes exist for a reason. If you fight at 205 and make weight, you are the same size. If you fight at HW, you are 206+. etc. Therefore that criteria is no good.

LMAO

this post needs too be seen again. i LOVE how pathetic @Bodil is.

 

[Based and White Pilled]

I disagree with your assertion that the hypothetical open weight tournament could not be a good way to determine the GOAT. If you specify that you are talking about P4P, then sure, but if you are just talking about the 'best fighter ever' I'd argue that size is a natural advantage in fighting and shouldn't be discounted. The heavier man is the better fighter, even if he isn't more skilled. You don't adjust for size when talking about the best basketball players because height is an advantage.

 

[Check-Hook]

Having PED's as a criteria is not objective lol... You can't objectively say, that if FighterX wasn't on PED's he would've been less dominant. There's nothing wrong in saying it, but you can't know for sure, it's your subjective opinion. Is it likely? Yes. But you don't know for sure.

Also, what if some of the other guys just weren't caught? Not accusing anyone of anything here, nor am I suggesting anything, but Fedor fought in Pride fx. We have no idea if he ever roided. I'm pretty sure GSP, Aldo, MM and DC never did, but hey, you can't know.

And just in general... This is still subjective, even if you remove the PED issues. You picked the criteria. What if my criteria for being GOAT is having taken the belt from Bisping? Does that make GSP the GOAT? No. What if my criteria was being a 6'4 black man with "Philippians 4:13" tatted across your chest? Does that make Bones the GOAT? No. Determining who is the greatest of all time will never be objective.

Another thing. The open weight tournament can't be ruled out. The only reason we have weight classes is to give smaller people a chance at competing. Matt Mitrione is objectively (if going by the premise that he beat MM every time) at better fighter than MM. He is not necessarily more skilled, but he holds the physical advantages over MM. Height and size are advantages bestowed upon you by nature. Not any different from you having a high IQ or something like that (don't get me wrong, I like that w have weightclasses, and in a GOAT debate I put MM over Mitrione. But OBJECTIVELY, Mitrione is a better fighter than MM because he beats him).

 

[0-1]

GOAT is subjective just lol when will people accept this and stop making threads arguing it, Do people honestly believe they can argue enough to convince somebody else their idea of the goat is the correct one? Its like trying to argue to a Muslim that Christianity is the correct religion or vice versa.

 

[chinarice]

TS makes criteria that shows GSP as #1.

I am gonna have to agree! lol

 

[Number 8]

Objective... On sherdog... Hahaaa

Really laughed, thanks.

 

[Only Here for Attachments]

I think favorite band and favorite movie are crucial aspects to the GOAT conversation. You can learn a lot about a man by the answers to those questions

 

[kickpuncher]

I think you also have to consider certain fighters leaving the sport, GSP, once he had his toughest fight (big rig). If GSP would come back to WW now, he would get murked. Also GSP ducked A Silva for many years, coming up with excuse after excuse, but then as soon as MW gets the weakest champ it has had in a super long time, only then does GSP want to go up to MW and fight. Also Bisping was landing pretty decent on GSP, so the top contenders at MW would definitely flat line him.

I think guys like A Silva and Fedor (though bellator is lacking) are at least fighting guys and not ducking like GSP. A Silva went up to LHW many times and even most recently went to fight Daniel C. GSP would never fucking do something like that.

 

[JRubin]

No, the post I made initially was plenty on topic. And that you're wanting to debate who is the GOAT proves that point of the post. TS is saying it isn't debatable, and his own thread on it proves that theory wrong, which was the exact point of my post. Then you tried to tell me that my personal criteria for greatness is wrong. There isn't a set definition of greatness. It is subjective, and that is yet again, the point of my initial post.

I get it, you're just repeating yourself.

You dont care whose the better fighter, and being the best fighter isnt what is important to you.

What I'm telling you, even though you refuse to accept it, is that the central argument in these GOAT threads is who is the better fighter.

Under your logic, GSP still > Fedor, since for you it's a popularity contest, and your only claim is that Fedor was more entertaining.

Yet more fans tuned into to watch GSP fight than the last emperor, he entertained more fans while not needing to sacrifice his talents. TRUE GOAT.

 

[Russie]

It's a no win debate when it comes to GOAT. Yet lots love to jump in and take a crack at it.

 

[Shadowthrone]

How many points is this

 

[Perrichet]

Anderson being mentioned in GOAT debates is funny. How can a GOAT have almost double digit losses. Makes no sense.

Add in PED’s, lack of ability compared to the others and his ducking of Jones/Shogun while calling out WW’s and FW’s it’s a joke

 

[youllneverwalkalone]

First off, some people consider ''GOAT'' as someone who would win an open weight tournament during their ''prime'' (whatever that means), I believe that to be wrong simply because a guy like Mitrione isn't better than MM, yet would win a fight 99% of the time.

The same names are brought up again and again: MM, DC, GSP, Jones, Silva, Fedor and Aldo So we will go with those 7. Anyone who believes anyone other than those 7 deserves GOAT status should not be taken seriously about anything MMA-related.

Now the most obvious part is out of the way, let's look at what makes someone resume ''GOAT'' worthy:

1) Finish %
2) Win %
3) Title reign (defenses, multiple titles)
4) Quality of opponents
5) Use of PEDs

FINISH % (based on the number of finishes divided by number of wins)
1a) Silva - 76%
1b) Fedor - 76%
3) Jones - 70%
4) DC - 68%
5) Aldo - 64%
6) MM - 59%
7) GSP - 54%

WIN % (based on the numbers of wins divided by total fights)
1) GSP - 93%
2a) Jones - 92%
2b) DC - 92%
4) Aldo - 88%
5) MM - 87%
6) Fedor 84%
7) Silva - 79%

Tile Reign (based on title wins in dif weight classes, total number of defenses, consecutive defenses, multiple weight titles)
1) GSP (9 WW defenses, MW champ, 16-2 in title fights)
2) DC (3 LHW defenses, 1 HW defense, LHW and HW champ 7-1-1 in title fights)
3) MM (11 defenses, 13-2-1 in title fights)
4) Silva (10 defenses, 11-2 in title fights)
5a) Jones (8 defenses, 11-0-1 in title fights)
5b) Aldo (9 defenses including WEC, 11-3 in title fights)
7) Fedor (3 pride HW defenses, 2 WAMMA HW defenses, no UFC titles)

Quality of opponents (based on opponents records and win streaks at the time of the fights, top 5 wins and top 10 wins)
1) GSP (most top 5 wins, most top 10wins, stopped insane streaks such as Fitch, Shields, etc.)
2) Jones (beat tons of former champs and legends of the sport)
3a) DC (decent lineup of opponents)
3b) Aldo (similar to DC)
5) Silva (MW was fairly weak at the time of the reign, no Romero, Rockold, etc.)
7a) MM (can barely name 5 note worthy opponents)
7b) Fedor (a lot of good wins and former UFC champs, but also a lot of freak shows)

Use of PEDs
1a) MM
1b) GSP
1c) DC
1d) Fedor
1e) Aldo
7a) Silva (caught on multiple occasions)
7b) Jones (nothing more needs to be said at this point)

Now let's look at this data with a point based system:
Rank 1 - 6 points
Rank 2 - 5 points
Rank 3 - 4 points
Rank 4 - 3 points
Rank 5 - 2 points
Rank 6 - 1 point
Rank 7 - 0 point

The results are the following:
1) GSP - 24 points
2) DC - 23 points
3a) Aldo - 17 points
3b) Jones - 17 points
5a) MM - 13 points
5b) Fedor - 13 points
7) Silva - 11 points

This list is as objective as it can get and a great representation of a real best P4P in history, in the accurate order.

Future contenders: Khabib, Holloway and Woodley.

Thank your effort, TS. I appreciate objectivity for once. I don't think you can be completely objective (your ranking system assumes an equal weighting of all aspects, which is not how sherdoggers approach the GOAT topic), but it is better than baseless claim.

For me, GOAT debate has no meaning tbh. MMA is too young and is not a sport to being with. People are not on equal footing when it comes to opportunities etc. You can discuss who has the most impact or notoriety but other than that it's pure fandom.

 

[45ACP]

Cool another of these threads.

No one except a loser will read all that horseshit, TS.

I read it all

 

[Bodil]

TS makes criteria that shows GSP as #1.

I am gonna have to agree! lol

I honestly just took as many criteria as possible just so people didn't think I was biased. I even included PED cheats which should automatically be excluded.

Literally any way you look at it, GSP is #1. The only criticism people have against GSP is that he didn't finish fights, but that is easily countered by the fact that he faced the toughest competition in all of MMA history.

I think you also have to consider certain fighters leaving the sport, GSP, once he had his toughest fight (big rig). If GSP would come back to WW now, he would get murked. Also GSP ducked A Silva for many years, coming up with excuse after excuse, but then as soon as MW gets the weakest champ it has had in a super long time, only then does GSP want to go up to MW and fight. Also Bisping was landing pretty decent on GSP, so the top contenders at MW would definitely flat line him.

I think guys like A Silva and Fedor (though bellator is lacking) are at least fighting guys and not ducking like GSP. A Silva went up to LHW many times and even most recently went to fight Daniel C. GSP would never fucking do something like that.

This is one of MMA's biggest myth, that GSP ''ducked''. The guy has the most top 5 wins and most top 10 wins in the history of the sport. He literally won the belt in the weight class above, something Silva could never do. Why didn't Silva fight Jones? Why didn't Jones fight at HW? Why didn't Fedor fight in the UFC? Ducks.

Anderson being mentioned in GOAT debates is funny. How can a GOAT have almost double digit losses. Makes no sense.

Add in PED’s, lack of ability compared to the others and his ducking of Jones/Shogun while calling out WW’s and FW’s it’s a joke

I only mentioned him because Anderoid fans would cry bias. I also think that anyone with 9 losses who also abused PEDs shouldn't be on any list lol

 

[Bodil]

Thank your effort, TS. I appreciate objectivity for once. I don't think you can be completely objective (your ranking system assumes an equal weighting of all aspects, which is not how sherdoggers approach the GOAT topic), but it is better than baseless claim.

For me, GOAT debate has no meaning tbh. MMA is too young and is not a sport to being with. People are not on equal footing when it comes to opportunities etc. You can discuss who has the most impact or notoriety but other than that it's pure fandom.

I disagree with pure fandom. For example, in hockey, you can look at the goaltender with the most wins, best win %, best stop %, most stanley cup wins, etc. Those are stats and they don't lie. Most MMA fans seem to be highly estrogen fueled and base their GOAT rankings on ''but this fighter is more entertaining!'' or ''but I feel like this fighter is better (despite his 10 losses)'', etc. There's no such thing as ''impact'' or entertainment in a GOAT debate, it's purely stats based and GSP wins that by a landslide.