An Objective take at ''GOAT'' debate

[JRubin]

There isn't anything objective about this debate.

It is purely opinion.

GSP is a great technical fighter, but I don't care for him bc he stopped finishing fights. Meanwhile, Fedor finished 76% of his fights and never really played it safe. He always fights trying to make his opponent tap or go night night. Same with Jones, but I don't like him bc he's a dbag. Silva was a cheater. MM didn't fight opponents capable of finishing him with any given punch like Fedor did. See where this is going...

It's subjective. Even if you attempt to objectively define the GOAT, people will say "Fuck you" and disagree.

End of the day, none of it matters. If nothing else, we can all agree who are the very best we've seen. Fedor, GSP, Jones, Silva, MM, DC and Aldo. Maybe Cruz.

Except your argument is based around Fedor being a more exciting fighting, not better. Being careless doesnt mean your better ya goof. But it does make for a hell of a fight.

Best fighter is different than most exciting fighter. I dont believe any GSP fan would even put GSP in the top 5 of most exciting fighters.

 

[burningspear]

 

[JoshTehV]

First off, some people consider ''GOAT'' as someone who would win an open weight tournament during their ''prime'' (whatever that means), I believe that to be wrong simply because a guy like Mitrione isn't better than MM, yet would win a fight 99% of the time.

The same names are brought up again and again: MM, DC, GSP, Jones, Silva, Fedor and Aldo So we will go with those 7. Anyone who believes anyone other than those 7 deserves GOAT status should not be taken seriously about anything MMA-related.

Now the most obvious part is out of the way, let's look at what makes someone resume ''GOAT'' worthy:

1) Finish %
2) Win %
3) Title reign (defenses, multiple titles)
4) Quality of opponents
5) Use of PEDs

FINISH % (based on the number of finishes divided by number of wins)
1a) Silva - 76%
1b) Fedor - 76%
3) Jones - 70%
4) DC - 68%
5) Aldo - 64%
6) MM - 59%
7) GSP - 54%

WIN % (based on the numbers of wins divided by total fights)
1) GSP - 93%
2a) Jones - 92%
2b) DC - 92%
4) Aldo - 88%
5) MM - 87%
6) Fedor 84%
7) Silva - 79%

Tile Reign (based on title wins in dif weight classes, total number of defenses, consecutive defenses, multiple weight titles)
1) GSP (9 WW defenses, MW champ, 16-2 in title fights)
2) DC (3 LHW defenses, 1 HW defense, LHW and HW champ 7-1-1 in title fights)
3) MM (11 defenses, 13-2-1 in title fights)
4) Silva (10 defenses, 11-2 in title fights)
5a) Jones (8 defenses, 11-0-1 in title fights)
5b) Aldo (9 defenses including WEC, 11-3 in title fights)
7) Fedor (3 pride HW defenses, 2 WAMMA HW defenses, no UFC titles)

Quality of opponents (based on opponents records and win streaks at the time of the fights, top 5 wins and top 10 wins)
1) GSP (most top 5 wins, most top 10wins, stopped insane streaks such as Fitch, Shields, etc.)
2) Jones (beat tons of former champs and legends of the sport)
3a) DC (decent lineup of opponents)
3b) Aldo (similar to DC)
5) Silva (MW was fairly weak at the time of the reign, no Romero, Rockold, etc.)
7a) MM (can barely name 5 note worthy opponents)
7b) Fedor (a lot of good wins and former UFC champs, but also a lot of freak shows)

Use of PEDs
1a) MM
1b) GSP
1c) DC
1d) Fedor
1e) Aldo
7a) Silva (caught on multiple occasions)
7b) Jones (nothing more needs to be said at this point)

Now let's look at this data with a point based system:
Rank 1 - 6 points
Rank 2 - 5 points
Rank 3 - 4 points
Rank 4 - 3 points
Rank 5 - 2 points
Rank 6 - 1 point
Rank 7 - 0 point

The results are the following:
1) GSP - 24 points
2) DC - 23 points
3a) Aldo - 17 points
3b) Jones - 17 points
5a) MM - 13 points
5b) Fedor - 13 points
7) Silva - 11 points

This list is as objective as it can get and a great representation of a real best P4P in history, in the accurate order.

Future contenders: Khabib, Holloway and Woodley.

what kind of bull shit pseudo mma math fuckery is going on over here

 

[Fossor]

There is only one who never lost.

 

[Bobby Boulders]

See.. It depends exclusively on your personal set of criterias.

You have your set, I have mine, etc..

It is what it is.

In time, mine:

1/ The way they dominated the game.

2/ The quality of their opponents.

3/ The innovations they brought to the game.

4/ How many [potential] HOFers in the resumé.

5/ Quality Wins AND Quality Losses (= put wins & losses INTO CONTEXT)

6/ Ali´s D2BG (Dared 2 Be Great?)... against [legit] heavier opponents.

Obs: this is NOT a head-2-head contest btw 2 fighters from different eras

Spoiler

View attachment 520375

"But Rule No1: Dont be insecure..."


View attachment 520377

It's all it ever will be. TS thinks he just cracked the code, but literally no one is going to consider what he is saying lol. It's all personal preference.

Personally, I haven't seen any fighter who was more dominant, who fought to win and didn't just fight not to lose, than Fedor. But I can respect the next guy who favors another fighter for others things. I don't even have to give a shit why they favor anyone else, it doesn't change my opinion at all. Most of the time, I don't care. It's just like we are all mostly fans of pizza, and for me, pepperoni is GOAT, but you may like supreme, and I dont give a shit. Just bc it's has more toppings and is a more versatile pizza, if that's what you like, cool. I like pepperoni bc for me, it's perfect. Fuck vegetables and mushrooms. Know what I mean?

For the record though, I love Saku and he holds a special place for me too. The exact kind of fighter I wanna see, win or lose.

 

[JRubin]

to me beating physically larger opponents than oneself counts for something

1. Fedor
2. DC
3. Silva
4. GSP
5. Aldo
6. Jones
7. MM

Fedor was an average sized HW, his 2 most impressive wins were against Big Nogx2, and CC, both being the same size as Fedor.

It's also a dumb argument because very few HW's cant make 205. HW is basically out of shape LHW's.

 

[scottjoebob]

First off, some people consider ''GOAT'' as someone who would win an open weight tournament during their ''prime'' (whatever that means), I believe that to be wrong simply because a guy like Mitrione isn't better than MM, yet would win a fight 99% of the time.

The same names are brought up again and again: MM, DC, GSP, Jones, Silva, Fedor and Aldo So we will go with those 7. Anyone who believes anyone other than those 7 deserves GOAT status should not be taken seriously about anything MMA-related.

Now the most obvious part is out of the way, let's look at what makes someone resume ''GOAT'' worthy:

1) Finish %
2) Win %
3) Title reign (defenses, multiple titles)
4) Quality of opponents
5) Use of PEDs

FINISH % (based on the number of finishes divided by number of wins)
1a) Silva - 76%
1b) Fedor - 76%
3) Jones - 70%
4) DC - 68%
5) Aldo - 64%
6) MM - 59%
7) GSP - 54%

WIN % (based on the numbers of wins divided by total fights)
1) GSP - 93%
2a) Jones - 92%
2b) DC - 92%
4) Aldo - 88%
5) MM - 87%
6) Fedor 84%
7) Silva - 79%

Tile Reign (based on title wins in dif weight classes, total number of defenses, consecutive defenses, multiple weight titles)
1) GSP (9 WW defenses, MW champ, 16-2 in title fights)
2) DC (3 LHW defenses, 1 HW defense, LHW and HW champ 7-1-1 in title fights)
3) MM (11 defenses, 13-2-1 in title fights)
4) Silva (10 defenses, 11-2 in title fights)
5a) Jones (8 defenses, 11-0-1 in title fights)
5b) Aldo (9 defenses including WEC, 11-3 in title fights)
7) Fedor (3 pride HW defenses, 2 WAMMA HW defenses, no UFC titles)

Quality of opponents (based on opponents records and win streaks at the time of the fights, top 5 wins and top 10 wins)
1) GSP (most top 5 wins, most top 10wins, stopped insane streaks such as Fitch, Shields, etc.)
2) Jones (beat tons of former champs and legends of the sport)
3a) DC (decent lineup of opponents)
3b) Aldo (similar to DC)
5) Silva (MW was fairly weak at the time of the reign, no Romero, Rockold, etc.)
7a) MM (can barely name 5 note worthy opponents)
7b) Fedor (a lot of good wins and former UFC champs, but also a lot of freak shows)

Use of PEDs
1a) MM
1b) GSP
1c) DC
1d) Fedor
1e) Aldo
7a) Silva (caught on multiple occasions)
7b) Jones (nothing more needs to be said at this point)

Now let's look at this data with a point based system:
Rank 1 - 6 points
Rank 2 - 5 points
Rank 3 - 4 points
Rank 4 - 3 points
Rank 5 - 2 points
Rank 6 - 1 point
Rank 7 - 0 point

The results are the following:
1) GSP - 24 points
2) DC - 23 points
3a) Aldo - 17 points
3b) Jones - 17 points
5a) MM - 13 points
5b) Fedor - 13 points
7) Silva - 11 points

This list is as objective as it can get and a great representation of a real best P4P in history, in the accurate order.

Future contenders: Khabib, Holloway and Woodley.

Fedor Emelianenko - UFC lineal HW champ - 19 Title defenses - Title reign - 6 years , 7 months , 22 days . http://www.fightmatrix.com/lineal-championship-histories/heavyweights/

 

[Egészségére!]

No such thing as prime. Only your first and last fight. If a fighter loses at 24 or at 38, they both count as losses. How are you going to objectively decide when a fighter leaves his prime? Spoiler alert: you can't.


Weight classes exist for a reason. If you fight at 205 and make weight, you are the same size. If you fight at HW, you are 206+. etc. Therefore that criteria is no good.

Fedor was an average sized HW, his 2 most impressive wins were against Big Nogx2, and CC, both being the same size as Fedor.

It's also a dumb argument because very few HW's cant make 205. HW is basically out of shape LHW's.

I know why weight classes exist but when it comes to the GOAT Fedor being a small heavyweight, DC winning HW grand Prix & beating Miocic & Lewis, and Silva destroying 3 LHW's counts for something imo

means they won on pure skill

 

[gono btw]

It's all it ever will be. TS thinks he just cracked the code, but literally no one is going to consider what he is saying lol. It's all personal preference.

Personally, I haven't seen any fighter who was more dominant, who fought to win and didn't just fight not to lose, than Fedor. But I can respect the next guy who favors another fighter for others things. I don't even have to give a shit why they favor anyone else, it doesn't change my opinion at all. Most of the time, I don't care. It's just like we are all mostly fans of pizza, and for me, pepperoni is GOAT, but you may like supreme, and I dont give a shit. Just bc it's has more toppings and is a more versatile pizza, if that's what you like, cool. I like pepperoni bc for me, it's perfect. Fuck vegetables and mushrooms. Know what I mean?

For the record though, I love Saku and he holds a special place for me too. The exact kind of fighter I wanna see, win or lose.

That fanbase is...insecure, indeed...

 

[boss429]

There isn't anything objective about this debate.

It is purely opinion.

GSP is a great technical fighter, but I don't care for him bc he stopped finishing fights. Meanwhile, Fedor finished 76% of his fights and never really played it safe. He always fights trying to make his opponent tap or go night night. Same with Jones, but I don't like him bc he's a dbag. Silva was a cheater. MM didn't fight opponents capable of finishing him with any given punch like Fedor did. See where this is going...

It's subjective. Even if you attempt to objectively define the GOAT, people will say "Fuck you" and disagree.

End of the day, none of it matters. If nothing else, we can all agree who are the very best we've seen. Fedor, GSP, Jones, Silva, MM, DC and Aldo. Maybe Cruz.

Lol at "Anderson was a cheater" despite never popping hot during his title reign and only after suffering a potentially career ending injury at an advanced age.

But when it comes to Jones only praise followed by " I don't like him because he's a d bag"

 

[Bobby Boulders]

Except your argument is based around Fedor being a more exciting fighting, not better. Being careless doesnt mean your better ya goof. But it does make for a hell of a fight.

Best fighter is different than most exciting fighter. I dont believe any GSP fan would even put GSP in the top 5 of most exciting fighters.

For me, that's great. He finished people, he fought to win, and put himself in danger many times, and still went undefeated for 10 years. That's greatness. GSP is great at what he does, but I dont really even care to watch him fight. He's not the greatest to me. The greatest is someone I actually get up for and wanna see fight. I'm never pumped for a GSP fight. He's an amazing technical fighter, and he's great at winning, but he doesn't fight to win. He fights not to lose. He's skilled enough to put people to sleep, or tap them out, but he hasn't done much of either in 10 years.

In boxing, it's the same. Floyd is a great point fighter, but he isn't the greatest to me. The whole point of fighting is to end the fight. He rarely does that. He's great at bobbing and weaving and not taking damage, but that doesn't do it for me. I'd rather see a guy who from time to time is on the ropes and has to show some heart, and come back and win.

It's all subjective. One person's criteria for greatness isn't the same as another's. Excitement holds more weight for me than defensive based point fighting. I think that stuff is kinda pussy, honestly.

 

[scottjoebob]

Fedor was an average sized HW, his 2 most impressive wins were against Big Nogx2, and CC, both being the same size as Fedor.

It's also a dumb argument because very few HW's cant make 205. HW is basically out of shape LHW's.

LHW is nothing but scared HWs .

 

[JRubin]

I know why weight classes exist but when it comes to the GOAT Fedor being a small heavyweight, DC winning HW grand Prix & beating Miocic & Lewis, and Silva destroying 3 LHW's counts for something imo

Fedor wasnt a small HW.

Why no GSP winning the MW belt @37, after a 4 year lay off, and another ACL injury??

I get that nobody considered Bisping was the best MW even though he was champion, but he was still a legit top 5, post USADA Bisping is heavily underrated on here because people hate GSP.

 

[JRubin]

For me, that's great. He finished people, he fought to win, and put himself in danger many times, and still went undefeated for 10 years. That's greatness. GSP is great at what he does, but I dont really even care to watch him fight. He's not the greatest to me. The greatest is someone I actually get up for and wanna see fight. I'm never pumped for a GSP fight. He's an amazing technical fighter, and he's great at winning, but he doesn't fight to win. He fights not to lose. He's skilled enough to put people to sleep, or tap them out, but he hasn't done much of either in 10 years.

In boxing, it's the same. Floyd is a great point fighter, but he isn't the greatest to me. The whole point of fighting is to end the fight. He rarely does that. He's great at bobbing and weaving and not taking damage, but that doesn't do it for me. I'd rather see a guy who from time to time is on the ropes and has to show some heart, and come back and win.

It's all subjective. One person's criteria for greatness isn't the same as another's. Excitement holds more weight for me than defensive based point fighting. I think that stuff is kinda pussy, honestly.

GSP has had the greatest impact on future generation MMA'ists over any other fighter.

If you want to look at how to be a champion there is no one better to look to than GSP, from anyone who aspires to compete or train, you would be doing yourself a giant disservice to fight like Fedor.

Even Fedor is an idiot for continuing to fight like Fedor, his chin is completely gone and has been since his early 30's because of his style.

 

[Bobby Boulders]

GSP has had the greatest impact on future generation MMA'ists over any other fighter.

If you want to look at how to be a champion there is no one better to look to than GSP, from anyone who aspires to compete or train, you would be doing yourself a giant disservice to fight like Fedor.

Even Fedor is an idiot for continuing to fight like Fedor, his chin is completely gone and has been since his early 30's because of his style.

You're not changing my opinion, bud. Not sure why you wasted your time typing that out, or why I wasted mine reading it. This discussion doesn't work that way, and that's why these discussions go the way this thread is already going, bc it's all opinion, and we are never going to agree. I don't care about GSP showing future gens how to fight. If that's the case, that sucks and this sport is going to be unwatchable soon. I'd rather see a guy throw caution to the wind and lose than a great fighter who holds guys down and doesn't try to put them out. That's not great to me.

 

[Egészségére!]

Fedor wasnt a small HW.
Why no GSP winning the MW belt @37, after a 4 year lay off, and another ACL injury??
I get that nobody considered Bisping was the best MW even though he was champion, but he was still a legit top 5, post USADA Bisping is heavily underrated on here because people hate GSP.

Silvia was 8 inches taller and outweighed Fedor by 35 lbs. Arlovski was 3 inches taller and outweighed him by 20 lbs. Brett Rogers was 5 inches taller and outweighed him by 32 lbs, etc.

And I respect GSP a lot for taking out Bisping and winning the belt. In fact if he actually does go down to 155 and beats Khabib all his other accomplishments will seem even more impressive

 

[gono btw]

You're not changing my opinion, bud. Not sure why you wasted your time typing that out, or why I wasted mine reading it. This discussion doesn't work that way, and that's why these discussions go the way this thread is already going, bc it's all opinion, and we are never going to agree. I don't care about GSP showing future gens how to fight. If that's the case, that sucks and this sport is going to be unwatchable soon. I'd rather see a guy throw caution to the wind and lose than a great fighter who holds guys down and doesn't try to put them out. That's not great to me.

GSP has had the greatest impact on future generation MMA'ists over any other fighter.

If you want to look at how to be a champion there is no one better to look to than GSP, from anyone who aspires to compete or train, you would be doing yourself a giant disservice to fight like Fedor.

Even Fedor is an idiot for continuing to fight like Fedor, his chin is completely gone and has been since his early 30's because of his style.

"To introduce such fans to a match in which you shut down your opponent without motion, it will leave no memories for them. If it's the choice of a sluggish match that I'll win by decision, I'd rather choose to lose in grand fashion by KO."
-Kazushi Sakuraba

 

[Bobby Boulders]

"To introduce such fans to a match in which you shut down your opponent without motion, it will leave no memories for them. If it's the choice of a sluggish match that I'll win by decision, I'd rather choose to lose in grand fashion by KO."
-Kazushi Sakuraba

 

[gono btw]

Poor No Rush...Even SAKU G. is a hater...

 

[Pious Augustus]

Title reign is irrelevant...