An Objective take at ''GOAT'' debate

[JRubin]

You're not changing my opinion, bud. Not sure why you wasted your time typing that out, or why I wasted mine reading it. This discussion doesn't work that way, and that's why these discussions go the way this thread is already going, bc it's all opinion, and we are never going to agree. I don't care about GSP showing future gens how to fight. If that's the case, that sucks and this sport is going to be unwatchable soon. I'd rather see a guy throw caution to the wind and lose than a great fighter who holds guys down and doesn't try to put them out. That's not great to me.

Except your watching a sport.... the entire basis of your argument revolves around " greatest to watch " which is not what GOAT means by any standard.

 

[Bobby Boulders]

Except your watching a sport.... the entire basis of your argument revolves around " greatest to watch " which is not what GOAT means by any standard.

No, you're telling me what greatest should mean to me, and that definition isn't mine.

 

[JRubin]

Silvia was 8 inches taller and outweighed Fedor by 35 lbs. Arlovski was 3 inches taller and outweighed him by 20 lbs. Brett Rogers was 5 inches taller and outweighed him by 32 lbs, etc.

And I respect GSP a lot for taking out Bisping and winning the belt. In fact if he actually does go down to 155 and beats Khabib all his other accomplishments will seem even more impressive

Who were Fedor's biggest wins?? Nog and CC, both were the same size as Fedor.

GSP competed majority of his WW career at 187lbs, which is small for LW standards today.

 

[E_tothe_X]

 

[JRubin]

No, you're telling me what greatest should mean to me, and that definition isn't mine.

Everyone debating the GOAT is doing so with the general understanding that we are talking about the " the best fighter to ever live ".

Its fine that this isnt your definition, but dont insert yourself into a conversation if you dont want to take part in it.

 

[JRubin]

"To introduce such fans to a match in which you shut down your opponent without motion, it will leave no memories for them. If it's the choice of a sluggish match that I'll win by decision, I'd rather choose to lose in grand fashion by KO."
-Kazushi Sakuraba

But that doesnt make him a better fighter, only a better entertainer at the expense of his skills. Which is basically what he is admitting to here.

 

[Bobby Boulders]

Everyone debating the GOAT is doing so with the general understanding that we are talking about the " the best fighter to ever live ".

Its fine that this isnt your definition, but dont insert yourself into a conversation if you dont want to take part in it.

What are you talking about? You're trying to reason why I'm wrong and I'm giving you my legitimate responses. I've given legit responses throughout this thread. The way YOU define greatness isn't the way I define greatness. That's why these topics are subjective. I'm not alone here, everyone defines greatness differently.

 

[JRubin]

Lol at "Anderson was a cheater" despite never popping hot during his title reign and only after suffering a potentially career ending injury at an advanced age.

But when it comes to Jones only praise followed by " I don't like him because he's a d bag"

During that camp, Anderson Silva for the 1st time under went Out Of Competition testing, where he failed multiple times for multiple substances.

You forgot to mention he also roided for a hand picked, retired, WW.

 

[JRubin]

What are you talking about? You're trying to reason why I'm wrong and I'm giving you my legitimate responses. I've given legit responses throughout this thread. The way YOU define greatness isn't the way I define greatness. That's why these topics are subjective. I'm not alone here, everyone defines greatness differently.

But we are all under the same premise that we are debating who is the greatest fighter of all time, something you admittedly dont care about.

 

[JAL]

First off, some people consider ''GOAT'' as someone who would win an open weight tournament during their ''prime'' (whatever that means), I believe that to be wrong simply because a guy like Mitrione isn't better than MM, yet would win a fight 99% of the time.

The same names are brought up again and again: MM, DC, GSP, Jones, Silva, Fedor and Aldo So we will go with those 7. Anyone who believes anyone other than those 7 deserves GOAT status should not be taken seriously about anything MMA-related.

Now the most obvious part is out of the way, let's look at what makes someone resume ''GOAT'' worthy:

1) Finish %
2) Win %
3) Title reign (defenses, multiple titles)
4) Quality of opponents
5) Use of PEDs

FINISH % (based on the number of finishes divided by number of wins)
1a) Silva - 76%
1b) Fedor - 76%
3) Jones - 70%
4) DC - 68%
5) Aldo - 64%
6) MM - 59%
7) GSP - 54%

WIN % (based on the numbers of wins divided by total fights)
1) GSP - 93%
2a) Jones - 92%
2b) DC - 92%
4) Aldo - 88%
5) MM - 87%
6) Fedor 84%
7) Silva - 79%

Tile Reign (based on title wins in dif weight classes, total number of defenses, consecutive defenses, multiple weight titles)
1) GSP (9 WW defenses, MW champ, 16-2 in title fights)
2) DC (3 LHW defenses, 1 HW defense, LHW and HW champ 7-1-1 in title fights)
3) MM (11 defenses, 13-2-1 in title fights)
4) Silva (10 defenses, 11-2 in title fights)
5a) Jones (8 defenses, 11-0-1 in title fights)
5b) Aldo (9 defenses including WEC, 11-3 in title fights)
7) Fedor (3 pride HW defenses, 2 WAMMA HW defenses, no UFC titles)

Quality of opponents (based on opponents records and win streaks at the time of the fights, top 5 wins and top 10 wins)
1) GSP (most top 5 wins, most top 10wins, stopped insane streaks such as Fitch, Shields, etc.)
2) Jones (beat tons of former champs and legends of the sport)
3a) DC (decent lineup of opponents)
3b) Aldo (similar to DC)
5) Silva (MW was fairly weak at the time of the reign, no Romero, Rockold, etc.)
7a) MM (can barely name 5 note worthy opponents)
7b) Fedor (a lot of good wins and former UFC champs, but also a lot of freak shows)

Use of PEDs
1a) MM
1b) GSP
1c) DC
1d) Fedor
1e) Aldo
7a) Silva (caught on multiple occasions)
7b) Jones (nothing more needs to be said at this point)

Now let's look at this data with a point based system:
Rank 1 - 6 points
Rank 2 - 5 points
Rank 3 - 4 points
Rank 4 - 3 points
Rank 5 - 2 points
Rank 6 - 1 point
Rank 7 - 0 point

The results are the following:
1) GSP - 24 points
2) DC - 23 points
3a) Aldo - 17 points
3b) Jones - 17 points
5a) MM - 13 points
5b) Fedor - 13 points
7) Silva - 11 points

This list is as objective as it can get and a great representation of a real best P4P in history, in the accurate order.

Future contenders: Khabib, Holloway and Woodley.

who the fuck is MM please clarify

 

[Bobby Boulders]

But we are all under the same premise that we are debating who is the greatest fighter of all time, something you admittedly dont care about.

No, I don't. Bc it ends up being a debate on why I'm wrong. I'm not wrong. You're not wrong. I didn't come here to debate who is the GOAT, I came here to address the OP, and remind TS that it isn't an objective discussion. I've said my piece, I don't wanna hear anybody's subjective reasons why they think anyone is the greatest. GOAT threads are done like 27 times a week. It's a tired topic. I only came into this thread bc TS thought he figured out tangible evidence to prove something that can't be proven.

 

[Drugstore Cowboy]

First off, some people consider ''GOAT'' as someone who would win an open weight tournament during their ''prime'' (whatever that means), I believe that to be wrong simply because a guy like Mitrione isn't better than MM, yet would win a fight 99% of the time.

The same names are brought up again and again: MM, DC, GSP, Jones, Silva, Fedor and Aldo So we will go with those 7. Anyone who believes anyone other than those 7 deserves GOAT status should not be taken seriously about anything MMA-related.

Now the most obvious part is out of the way, let's look at what makes someone resume ''GOAT'' worthy:

1) Finish %
2) Win %
3) Title reign (defenses, multiple titles)
4) Quality of opponents
5) Use of PEDs

FINISH % (based on the number of finishes divided by number of wins)
1a) Silva - 76%
1b) Fedor - 76%
3) Jones - 70%
4) DC - 68%
5) Aldo - 64%
6) MM - 59%
7) GSP - 54%

WIN % (based on the numbers of wins divided by total fights)
1) GSP - 93%
2a) Jones - 92%
2b) DC - 92%
4) Aldo - 88%
5) MM - 87%
6) Fedor 84%
7) Silva - 79%

Tile Reign (based on title wins in dif weight classes, total number of defenses, consecutive defenses, multiple weight titles)
1) GSP (9 WW defenses, MW champ, 16-2 in title fights)
2) DC (3 LHW defenses, 1 HW defense, LHW and HW champ 7-1-1 in title fights)
3) MM (11 defenses, 13-2-1 in title fights)
4) Silva (10 defenses, 11-2 in title fights)
5a) Jones (8 defenses, 11-0-1 in title fights)
5b) Aldo (9 defenses including WEC, 11-3 in title fights)
7) Fedor (3 pride HW defenses, 2 WAMMA HW defenses, no UFC titles)

Quality of opponents (based on opponents records and win streaks at the time of the fights, top 5 wins and top 10 wins)
1) GSP (most top 5 wins, most top 10wins, stopped insane streaks such as Fitch, Shields, etc.)
2) Jones (beat tons of former champs and legends of the sport)
3a) DC (decent lineup of opponents)
3b) Aldo (similar to DC)
5) Silva (MW was fairly weak at the time of the reign, no Romero, Rockold, etc.)
7a) MM (can barely name 5 note worthy opponents)
7b) Fedor (a lot of good wins and former UFC champs, but also a lot of freak shows)

Use of PEDs
1a) MM
1b) GSP
1c) DC
1d) Fedor
1e) Aldo
7a) Silva (caught on multiple occasions)
7b) Jones (nothing more needs to be said at this point)

Now let's look at this data with a point based system:
Rank 1 - 6 points
Rank 2 - 5 points
Rank 3 - 4 points
Rank 4 - 3 points
Rank 5 - 2 points
Rank 6 - 1 point
Rank 7 - 0 point

The results are the following:
1) GSP - 24 points
2) DC - 23 points
3a) Aldo - 17 points
3b) Jones - 17 points
5a) MM - 13 points
5b) Fedor - 13 points
7) Silva - 11 points

This list is as objective as it can get and a great representation of a real best P4P in history, in the accurate order.

Future contenders: Khabib, Holloway and Woodley.

HOW THE FUCK IS GSP 16-2 IN THE TITLE FIGHTS?
The guy is 13-2
If he has 13 titles, that means he won 13 times in the title fights. He has 15 title fights and 13 wins

 

[Prototype]

Literally no one is saying that JDS is the GOAT. Generally, no one brings up names that you didn't mention in your OP. That isn't even what I said at all.

OF THE NAMES MENTIONED HERE EVERYDAY, OVER AND OVER, it is opinion based.

Btw, @gono btw rounds thinks Sakuraba is the GOAT. And I don't think he is wrong for that.

WTF ? This guy @gono btw is constantly hating on the GOAT GSP while accusing me of being Dominick Cruz (One of the GOATs) so i shouldnt really be surprised at all about him thinking that Sakuraba is the GOAT

 

[Bobby Boulders]

WTF ? This guy @gono btw is constantly hating on the GOAT GSP while accusing me of being Dominick Cruz (One of the GOATs) so i shouldnt really be surprised at all about him thinking that Sakuraba is the GOAT

Well? Are you Dominick Cruz or not?

 

[Prototype]

Well? Are you Dominick Cruz or not?

No but according to your buddy im Dominick Cruz. Im a little bit confused does he accuse everyone here of being Cruz ?

 

[Bobby Boulders]

No but according to your buddy im Dominick Cruz. Im a little bit confused does he accuse everyone here of being Cruz ?

Dunno lol. But I've got my eye on you, Dom...

 

[Bodil]

For me, that's great. He finished people, he fought to win, and put himself in danger many times, and still went undefeated for 10 years. That's greatness. GSP is great at what he does, but I dont really even care to watch him fight. He's not the greatest to me. The greatest is someone I actually get up for and wanna see fight. I'm never pumped for a GSP fight. He's an amazing technical fighter, and he's great at winning, but he doesn't fight to win. He fights not to lose. He's skilled enough to put people to sleep, or tap them out, but he hasn't done much of either in 10 years.

In boxing, it's the same. Floyd is a great point fighter, but he isn't the greatest to me. The whole point of fighting is to end the fight. He rarely does that. He's great at bobbing and weaving and not taking damage, but that doesn't do it for me. I'd rather see a guy who from time to time is on the ropes and has to show some heart, and come back and win.

It's all subjective. One person's criteria for greatness isn't the same as another's. Excitement holds more weight for me than defensive based point fighting. I think that stuff is kinda pussy, honestly.

What are you talking about? You're trying to reason why I'm wrong and I'm giving you my legitimate responses. I've given legit responses throughout this thread. The way YOU define greatness isn't the way I define greatness. That's why these topics are subjective. I'm not alone here, everyone defines greatness differently.

GOAT doesnt mean most entertaining. You cant take part in a GOAT debate if you dont understand what it entails.

 

[JRubin]

No, I don't. Bc it ends up being a debate on why I'm wrong. I'm not wrong. You're not wrong. I didn't come here to debate who is the GOAT, I came here to address the OP, and remind TS that it isn't an objective discussion. I've said my piece, I don't wanna hear anybody's subjective reasons why they think anyone is the greatest. GOAT threads are done like 27 times a week. It's a tired topic. I only came into this thread bc TS thought he figured out tangible evidence to prove something that can't be proven.

No I didn't say your wrong, I said your off topic

 

[Rum]

First off, some people consider ''GOAT'' as someone who would win an open weight tournament during their ''prime'' (whatever that means), I believe that to be wrong simply because a guy like Mitrione isn't better than MM, yet would win a fight 99% of the time.

The same names are brought up again and again: MM, DC, GSP, Jones, Silva, Fedor and Aldo So we will go with those 7. Anyone who believes anyone other than those 7 deserves GOAT status should not be taken seriously about anything MMA-related.

Now the most obvious part is out of the way, let's look at what makes someone resume ''GOAT'' worthy:

1) Finish %
2) Win %
3) Title reign (defenses, multiple titles)
4) Quality of opponents
5) Use of PEDs

FINISH % (based on the number of finishes divided by number of wins)
1a) Silva - 76%
1b) Fedor - 76%
3) Jones - 70%
4) DC - 68%
5) Aldo - 64%
6) MM - 59%
7) GSP - 54%

WIN % (based on the numbers of wins divided by total fights)
1) GSP - 93%
2a) Jones - 92%
2b) DC - 92%
4) Aldo - 88%
5) MM - 87%
6) Fedor 84%
7) Silva - 79%

Tile Reign (based on title wins in dif weight classes, total number of defenses, consecutive defenses, multiple weight titles)
1) GSP (9 WW defenses, MW champ, 16-2 in title fights)
2) DC (3 LHW defenses, 1 HW defense, LHW and HW champ 7-1-1 in title fights)
3) MM (11 defenses, 13-2-1 in title fights)
4) Silva (10 defenses, 11-2 in title fights)
5a) Jones (8 defenses, 11-0-1 in title fights)
5b) Aldo (9 defenses including WEC, 11-3 in title fights)
7) Fedor (3 pride HW defenses, 2 WAMMA HW defenses, no UFC titles)

Quality of opponents (based on opponents records and win streaks at the time of the fights, top 5 wins and top 10 wins)
1) GSP (most top 5 wins, most top 10wins, stopped insane streaks such as Fitch, Shields, etc.)
2) Jones (beat tons of former champs and legends of the sport)
3a) DC (decent lineup of opponents)
3b) Aldo (similar to DC)
5) Silva (MW was fairly weak at the time of the reign, no Romero, Rockold, etc.)
7a) MM (can barely name 5 note worthy opponents)
7b) Fedor (a lot of good wins and former UFC champs, but also a lot of freak shows)

Use of PEDs
1a) MM
1b) GSP
1c) DC
1d) Fedor
1e) Aldo
7a) Silva (caught on multiple occasions)
7b) Jones (nothing more needs to be said at this point)

Now let's look at this data with a point based system:
Rank 1 - 6 points
Rank 2 - 5 points
Rank 3 - 4 points
Rank 4 - 3 points
Rank 5 - 2 points
Rank 6 - 1 point
Rank 7 - 0 point

The results are the following:
1) GSP - 24 points
2) DC - 23 points
3a) Aldo - 17 points
3b) Jones - 17 points
5a) MM - 13 points
5b) Fedor - 13 points
7) Silva - 11 points

This list is as objective as it can get and a great representation of a real best P4P in history, in the accurate order.

Future contenders: Khabib, Holloway and Woodley.

Good effort, these attempts at quantifying greatness are always fun to look over, even if they're never quite as objective as they're claimed to be.

1.
GSP has 11 title fight victories at WW, and one at MW. He has competed in 14 title fights. Your "16" wins for him doesn't make much sense (even though he is my personal GOAT).

2.
For Title Reign, unfortunately for DC, you really have to handicap in favour of longer reigns because when you are the title holder everyone else in the division is studying you any time they're not studying their immediate opponent. As an example consider what guys like Conor and Max openly said about fighting Aldo (or what Reyes recently said about Bones). Because Aldo was World Champ for so long, by the time they fought Aldo they had been studying Aldo and training to beat Aldo for half a decade or so. Meanwhile, Aldo only trained for each of those guys maybe a year. When you are champ you can't train for every potential future challenger in your spare time, but they can all train for you in theirs. This naturally means that the longer you reign the more difficult it becomes to defend, meaning Aldo's 9 defenses are significantly more impressive than DC's 3.

And DC, even when he was LHW champion, didn't have that target on his back to the same extent as GSP/Aldo/MM etc. because everyone still considered Jon the #1 205er on the planet, so their attention was split between DC and Jon. As current HW champ DC does have that target on his back, but he hasn't even been HW champ for a year yet, let alone six.

In addition to the above, guys like GSP and Aldo fought nothing but #1 contenders for more than half a decade. DC fought MW Anderson on 36 hours notice, Gus off an R1 KO loss, Hendo on a 1-3 skid ... the idea that Aldo's quality of opponents is "similar to DC" doesn't hold up under any meaningful analysis, especially when you also factor in that, objectively speaking, FW/LW/WW are easily statistically proven to be significantly deeper talent pools than LHW and HW.

FW/LW/WW thus generally throw a higher quality of opponent at their champions than the likes of 125/205/HW (something admitted even by HWs like Mir and Schaub). DC has never beaten a fighter on the level of Edgar or Mendes and the only time he's fought an opponent on the level of the Holloway who took Aldo's title DC lost to him.

 

[Bobby Boulders]

GOAT doesnt mean most entertaining. You cant take part in a GOAT debate if you dont understand what it entails.

For one, I never said that. But it is PART of what it entails for me, personally. It isn't a part of it for you, fine. And now you're reading another example of why this is subjective. Bc not only will people never agree on who is greatest, they will never agree on the criteria of what makes someone the greatest. The whole topic is a catch 22. There is never going to be a real answer.

Fedor WAS exciting. He finished fights, he overcame adversity, and did it having an unprecedented run in the weight class that it is hardest to have a run of that type. He showed great skills too, and against competition that could put him away with a punch at any given time. He never stalled the fight, he never held a guy down and ran out the clock, he put himself in danger to get to the point of the fight, which is to end it. And for a decade, he never lost doing it. It's great to me. I don't care if it's great to you.

Now that I have restated my subjective opinion yet again, can I go now? I've been clubbing this guy to death in another thread and this is getting in the way of that.