An Objective take at ''GOAT'' debate

[Zabit 145 Goat]

Another barometer for GOAT I like to look at is : Who was the best fighter in their prime. What I mean is who reached the absolute pentacle of fighting and was the best a fighter we could possibly see when they were in their prime.

By that single barometer, Anderson Silva was the greatest we've ever seen a fighter at one point in time.

 

[Zabit 145 Goat]

I really think Aldo should be taken more seriously as a potential GOAT.

- His reign was amongst the best
- His competition was a murderers row
- His resume is up there
- Never popped, ever

 

[ChumpyKiwi]

Stop

 

[myjohnson9]

First off, some people consider ''GOAT'' as someone who would win an open weight tournament during their ''prime'' (whatever that means), I believe that to be wrong simply because a guy like Mitrione isn't better than MM, yet would win a fight 99% of the time.

The same names are brought up again and again: MM, DC, GSP, Jones, Silva, Fedor and Aldo So we will go with those 7. Anyone who believes anyone other than those 7 deserves GOAT status should not be taken seriously about anything MMA-related.

Now the most obvious part is out of the way, let's look at what makes someone resume ''GOAT'' worthy:

1) Finish %
2) Win %
3) Title reign (defenses, multiple titles)
4) Quality of opponents
5) Use of PEDs

FINISH % (based on the number of finishes divided by number of wins)
1a) Silva - 76%
1b) Fedor - 76%
3) Jones - 70%
4) DC - 68%
5) Aldo - 64%
6) MM - 59%
7) GSP - 54%

WIN % (based on the numbers of wins divided by total fights)
1) GSP - 93%
2a) Jones - 92%
2b) DC - 92%
4) Aldo - 88%
5) MM - 87%
6) Fedor 84%
7) Silva - 79%

Tile Reign (based on title wins in dif weight classes, total number of defenses, consecutive defenses, multiple weight titles)
1) GSP (9 WW defenses, MW champ, 16-2 in title fights)
2) DC (3 LHW defenses, 1 HW defense, LHW and HW champ 7-1-1 in title fights)
3) MM (11 defenses, 13-2-1 in title fights)
4) Silva (10 defenses, 11-2 in title fights)
5a) Jones (8 defenses, 11-0-1 in title fights)
5b) Aldo (9 defenses including WEC, 11-3 in title fights)
7) Fedor (3 pride HW defenses, 2 WAMMA HW defenses, no UFC titles)

Quality of opponents (based on opponents records and win streaks at the time of the fights, top 5 wins and top 10 wins)
1) GSP (most top 5 wins, most top 10wins, stopped insane streaks such as Fitch, Shields, etc.)
2) Jones (beat tons of former champs and legends of the sport)
3a) DC (decent lineup of opponents)
3b) Aldo (similar to DC)
5) Silva (MW was fairly weak at the time of the reign, no Romero, Rockold, etc.)
7a) MM (can barely name 5 note worthy opponents)
7b) Fedor (a lot of good wins and former UFC champs, but also a lot of freak shows)

Use of PEDs
1a) MM
1b) GSP
1c) DC
1d) Fedor
1e) Aldo
7a) Silva (caught on multiple occasions)
7b) Jones (nothing more needs to be said at this point)

Now let's look at this data with a point based system:
Rank 1 - 6 points
Rank 2 - 5 points
Rank 3 - 4 points
Rank 4 - 3 points
Rank 5 - 2 points
Rank 6 - 1 point
Rank 7 - 0 point

The results are the following:
1) GSP - 24 points
2) DC - 23 points
3a) Aldo - 17 points
3b) Jones - 17 points
5a) MM - 13 points
5b) Fedor - 13 points
7) Silva - 11 points

This list is as objective as it can get and a great representation of a real best P4P in history, in the accurate order.

Future contenders: Khabib, Holloway and Woodley.

You have Dc over Jones = your system sucks

 

[Taric]

Fedor was the #1 HW from March 16th 2003 until June 26th 2010.
That is 7 years, 3 months, and 10 days of being the #1 undisputed HW of the world without a loss during that reign.

Anderson was the #1 MW from October 14th 2006 until July 6th 2013.
That is 6 years, 8 months, and 22 days of being the #1 undisputed MW of the world without a loss during that reign.

Aldo was the #1 FW from November 18th 2009 until December 12th 2015.
That is 6 years, 0 months, and 24 days of being the #1 undisputed FW of the world without a loss during that reign.

GSP was the #1 WW from April 19th 2008 until December 13th 2013.
That is 5 years, 7 months, and 24 days of being the #1 undisputed WW of the world without a loss during that reign.

Jones was the #1 LHW from March 19th 2011 until April 28th 2015
That is 4 years, 1 months, and 9 days of being the #1 undisputed LHW of the world before he was stripped of his title.

Hows that for an objective take on GOAT status? 100% objective.
Half the TS' qualifiers are subjective. Get fucked lol

 

[mkt]

Barnett popped under Affliction before the UFC.

pre USADA ufc had identical testing to every other promotion they were under WADA code same shit every other promotion still uses today. USADA follows WADA code too the main differences is they have more funding for random testing.

Barnett popped under the UFC (his first run) long before Affliction, too. He's the undisputed PED king. That said, I still highly question testing in Coker orgs. They seem to only catch fighters expendable fighters like Kimbo and Ken Shamrock.

That said, my point about USADA-level testing stands.

 

[Bodil]

You have Dc over Jones = your system sucks

Jones pissed hot 3 times. That loses him a lot of points. Jones has 1 loss. DC has 1 loss. DC is clean. Simple math.

 

[Bodil]

Fedor was the #1 HW from March 16th 2003 until June 26th 2010.
That is 7 years, 3 months, and 10 days of being the #1 undisputed HW of the world without a loss during that reign.

Anderson was the #1 MW from October 14th 2006 until July 6th 2013.
That is 6 years, 8 months, and 22 days of being the #1 undisputed MW of the world without a loss during that reign.

Aldo was the #1 FW from November 18th 2009 until December 12th 2015.
That is 6 years, 0 months, and 24 days of being the #1 undisputed FW of the world without a loss during that reign.

GSP was the #1 WW from April 19th 2008 until December 13th 2013.
That is 5 years, 7 months, and 24 days of being the #1 undisputed WW of the world without a loss during that reign.

Jones was the #1 LHW from March 19th 2011 until April 28th 2015
That is 4 years, 1 months, and 9 days of being the #1 undisputed LHW of the world before he was stripped of his title.

Hows that for an objective take on GOAT status? 100% objective.
Half the TS' qualifiers are subjective. Get fucked lol

It was already included in title reign. Get fucked lol

 

[Taric]

It was already included in title reign. Get fucked lol

No, you used title defenses as your measurement even though Fedor obviously had more than 3 title defenses.
Every time Fedor fought as the #1 HW, he was defending that ranking.

 

[613]

If DC were to beat an unbeaten Jones

But no one actually thinks DC can do that. People pretend they think DC would win at HW, but they don't believe that

 

[613]

Jones pissed hot 3 times. That loses him a lot of points. Jones has 1 loss. DC has 1 loss. DC is clean. Simple math.

LOL at the 40 year old former Olympic wrestler, who had a T/E ratio of 0.4 before the Jones fight being clean. They are all on something. Jones is just the most careless fighter in the world outside the cage.

Also LOL at Jones has 1 loss

 

[ferrisjso]

Fedor was the #1 HW from March 16th 2003 until June 26th 2010.
That is 7 years, 3 months, and 10 days of being the #1 undisputed HW of the world without a loss during that reign.

Anderson was the #1 MW from October 14th 2006 until July 6th 2013.
That is 6 years, 8 months, and 22 days of being the #1 undisputed MW of the world without a loss during that reign.

Aldo was the #1 FW from November 18th 2009 until December 12th 2015.
That is 6 years, 0 months, and 24 days of being the #1 undisputed FW of the world without a loss during that reign.

GSP was the #1 WW from April 19th 2008 until December 13th 2013.
That is 5 years, 7 months, and 24 days of being the #1 undisputed WW of the world without a loss during that reign.

Jones was the #1 LHW from March 19th 2011 until April 28th 2015
That is 4 years, 1 months, and 9 days of being the #1 undisputed LHW of the world before he was stripped of his title.

Hows that for an objective take on GOAT status? 100% objective.
Half the TS' qualifiers are subjective. Get fucked lol

Forgets several things, one Jones's was never considered the GOAT because of his long title reign but because of the quality of his defenses, then having never lost by non BS rule DQ. Jones was only starting to approach GSP and AS in title defenses when he got in his accident, before that the record wasn't really part of the "Jones is GOAT" conversation.

Second thing is Jones has still never lost(unlike those guys) and is still champ and still going to continue on fighting and likely winning for the forseeable future. Also GSP's ninth defense at the time it happened was near universally considered an incorrect decision.

Also wouldn't Jones be doing 8 defenses in less time than GSP be a point in Jones's favor?

Context matters even when simplifying stuff.

 

[boss429]

During that camp, Anderson Silva for the 1st time under went Out Of Competition testing, where he failed multiple times for multiple substances.

You forgot to mention he also roided for a hand picked, retired, WW.

Yeah but he never failed during the time when Champions were pretty much the only ones getting regularly tested and none of what you said changes what I said about him rehabbing from a potential career ending injury in his late 30's.

 

[mahavishnunj]

First off, some people consider ''GOAT'' as someone who would win an open weight tournament during their ''prime'' (whatever that means), I believe that to be wrong simply because a guy like Mitrione isn't better than MM, yet would win a fight 99% of the time.

The same names are brought up again and again: MM, DC, GSP, Jones, Silva, Fedor and Aldo So we will go with those 7. Anyone who believes anyone other than those 7 deserves GOAT status should not be taken seriously about anything MMA-related.

Now the most obvious part is out of the way, let's look at what makes someone resume ''GOAT'' worthy:

1) Finish %
2) Win %
3) Title reign (defenses, multiple titles)
4) Quality of opponents
5) Use of PEDs

FINISH % (based on the number of finishes divided by number of wins)
1a) Silva - 76%
1b) Fedor - 76%
3) Jones - 70%
4) DC - 68%
5) Aldo - 64%
6) MM - 59%
7) GSP - 54%

WIN % (based on the numbers of wins divided by total fights)
1) GSP - 93%
2a) Jones - 92%
2b) DC - 92%
4) Aldo - 88%
5) MM - 87%
6) Fedor 84%
7) Silva - 79%

Tile Reign (based on title wins in dif weight classes, total number of defenses, consecutive defenses, multiple weight titles)
1) GSP (9 WW defenses, MW champ, 16-2 in title fights)
2) DC (3 LHW defenses, 1 HW defense, LHW and HW champ 7-1-1 in title fights)
3) MM (11 defenses, 13-2-1 in title fights)
4) Silva (10 defenses, 11-2 in title fights)
5a) Jones (8 defenses, 11-0-1 in title fights)
5b) Aldo (9 defenses including WEC, 11-3 in title fights)
7) Fedor (3 pride HW defenses, 2 WAMMA HW defenses, no UFC titles)

Quality of opponents (based on opponents records and win streaks at the time of the fights, top 5 wins and top 10 wins)
1) GSP (most top 5 wins, most top 10wins, stopped insane streaks such as Fitch, Shields, etc.)
2) Jones (beat tons of former champs and legends of the sport)
3a) DC (decent lineup of opponents)
3b) Aldo (similar to DC)
5) Silva (MW was fairly weak at the time of the reign, no Romero, Rockold, etc.)
7a) MM (can barely name 5 note worthy opponents)
7b) Fedor (a lot of good wins and former UFC champs, but also a lot of freak shows)

Use of PEDs
1a) MM
1b) GSP
1c) DC
1d) Fedor
1e) Aldo
7a) Silva (caught on multiple occasions)
7b) Jones (nothing more needs to be said at this point)

Now let's look at this data with a point based system:
Rank 1 - 6 points
Rank 2 - 5 points
Rank 3 - 4 points
Rank 4 - 3 points
Rank 5 - 2 points
Rank 6 - 1 point
Rank 7 - 0 point

The results are the following:
1) GSP - 24 points
2) DC - 23 points
3a) Aldo - 17 points
3b) Jones - 17 points
5a) MM - 13 points
5b) Fedor - 13 points
7) Silva - 11 points

This list is as objective as it can get and a great representation of a real best P4P in history, in the accurate order.

Future contenders: Khabib, Holloway and Woodley.

i was hoping the objective take would be how fucking retarded it is to keep posting about it

 

[PancraseForever]

First off, some people consider ''GOAT'' as someone who would win an open weight tournament during their ''prime'' (whatever that means), I believe that to be wrong simply because a guy like Mitrione isn't better than MM, yet would win a fight 99% of the time.

The same names are brought up again and again: MM, DC, GSP, Jones, Silva, Fedor and Aldo So we will go with those 7. Anyone who believes anyone other than those 7 deserves GOAT status should not be taken seriously about anything MMA-related.

Now the most obvious part is out of the way, let's look at what makes someone resume ''GOAT'' worthy:

1) Finish %
2) Win %
3) Title reign (defenses, multiple titles)
4) Quality of opponents
5) Use of PEDs

FINISH % (based on the number of finishes divided by number of wins)
1a) Silva - 76%
1b) Fedor - 76%
3) Jones - 70%
4) DC - 68%
5) Aldo - 64%
6) MM - 59%
7) GSP - 54%

WIN % (based on the numbers of wins divided by total fights)
1) GSP - 93%
2a) Jones - 92%
2b) DC - 92%
4) Aldo - 88%
5) MM - 87%
6) Fedor 84%
7) Silva - 79%

Tile Reign (based on title wins in dif weight classes, total number of defenses, consecutive defenses, multiple weight titles)
1) GSP (9 WW defenses, MW champ, 16-2 in title fights)
2) DC (3 LHW defenses, 1 HW defense, LHW and HW champ 7-1-1 in title fights)
3) MM (11 defenses, 13-2-1 in title fights)
4) Silva (10 defenses, 11-2 in title fights)
5a) Jones (8 defenses, 11-0-1 in title fights)
5b) Aldo (9 defenses including WEC, 11-3 in title fights)
7) Fedor (3 pride HW defenses, 2 WAMMA HW defenses, no UFC titles)

Quality of opponents (based on opponents records and win streaks at the time of the fights, top 5 wins and top 10 wins)
1) GSP (most top 5 wins, most top 10wins, stopped insane streaks such as Fitch, Shields, etc.)
2) Jones (beat tons of former champs and legends of the sport)
3a) DC (decent lineup of opponents)
3b) Aldo (similar to DC)
5) Silva (MW was fairly weak at the time of the reign, no Romero, Rockold, etc.)
7a) MM (can barely name 5 note worthy opponents)
7b) Fedor (a lot of good wins and former UFC champs, but also a lot of freak shows)

Use of PEDs
1a) MM
1b) GSP
1c) DC
1d) Fedor
1e) Aldo
7a) Silva (caught on multiple occasions)
7b) Jones (nothing more needs to be said at this point)

Now let's look at this data with a point based system:
Rank 1 - 6 points
Rank 2 - 5 points
Rank 3 - 4 points
Rank 4 - 3 points
Rank 5 - 2 points
Rank 6 - 1 point
Rank 7 - 0 point

The results are the following:
1) GSP - 24 points
2) DC - 23 points
3a) Aldo - 17 points
3b) Jones - 17 points
5a) MM - 13 points
5b) Fedor - 13 points
7) Silva - 11 points

This list is as objective as it can get and a great representation of a real best P4P in history, in the accurate order.

Future contenders: Khabib, Holloway and Woodley.

This doesn't work. Fighters who overstay their welcome are obv gonna have a worse win %. Silva and Fedor have way overstayed their welcome.

Also quality of opponent should be removed. Do prime win % over formidable opposition. IMO though I wouldn't call Maia formidable for AS, due to EXTREME stylistic advantage.

Jones beat obviously washed up legends.

Finish % should count for slightly less. Boring style =/= less skill.

 

[HydralisK]

Khabib will smash GSP if he tries to come to 155, so I don't care. Lol.

 

[Bodil]

This doesn't work. Fighters who overstay their welcome are obv gonna have a worse win %. Silva and Fedor have way overstayed their welcome.

Also quality of opponent should be removed. Do prime win % over formidable opposition. IMO though I wouldn't call Maia formidable for AS, due to EXTREME stylistic advantage.

Jones beat obviously washed up legends.

Finish % should count for slightly less. Boring style =/= less skill.

What is prime? You can't define it, therefore it can't be included.

And no, ''prime'' doesn't end when a dominant fighter starts losing. That's too convenient.

 

[djacobox372]

Two criticisms of this metric:

"Quality of opponents" is not objective. Perhaps change this to wins over champs/former champs/top-5

And win % shouldn't include the tail end of a career. Your GOAT status shouldn't be affected by hanging around in the sport too long.

If you fix those two things, Fedor and Andy rank much higher.

 

[djacobox372]

What is prime? You can't define it, therefore it can't be included.
And no, ''prime'' doesn't end when a dominant fighter starts losing. That's too convenient.

It can be defined with objective terms: 35yo or 10 years from first title shot, whichever comes first.

 

[PancraseForever]

What is prime? You can't define it, therefore it can't be included.

And no, ''prime'' doesn't end when a dominant fighter starts losing. That's too convenient.

So because GSP retired early it means other greats who've CLEARLY lost a step (or 10, or 20) and continue fighting anyway racking up loss after loss after loss should be ranked behind him?

It's never considered in boxing rankings, like Ali getting the shit kicked out of him past prime isn't counted as a factor.