An Objective take at ''GOAT'' debate

[I WILL CUT YOU]

For me, that's great. He finished people, he fought to win, and put himself in danger many times, and still went undefeated for 10 years. That's greatness. GSP is great at what he does, but I dont really even care to watch him fight. He's not the greatest to me. The greatest is someone I actually get up for and wanna see fight. I'm never pumped for a GSP fight. He's an amazing technical fighter, and he's great at winning, but he doesn't fight to win. He fights not to lose. He's skilled enough to put people to sleep, or tap them out, but he hasn't done much of either in 10 years.

In boxing, it's the same. Floyd is a great point fighter, but he isn't the greatest to me. The whole point of fighting is to end the fight. He rarely does that. He's great at bobbing and weaving and not taking damage, but that doesn't do it for me. I'd rather see a guy who from time to time is on the ropes and has to show some heart, and come back and win.

It's all subjective. One person's criteria for greatness isn't the same as another's. Excitement holds more weight for me than defensive based point fighting. I think that stuff is kinda pussy, honestly.

Bobby Digit my ninjit great post

 

[I WILL CUT YOU]

TS there is no objective way to crown the GOAT.

This thread, same style of ranking point system, has been done many times.

You didn't invent some infallible way to rank all-time greats, or bring anything new to the GOAT debate.

You subjectively designed criteria around your personal choice for GOAT, and in doing so you've wasted your time.

You've done the forum equivalent of running on a treadmill-- you did something, but you didn't go anywhere.

 

[Nueman43]

most of your points have major flaws

for example:
title defenses - pride had different system, you cant blame fighter for it
quality of opponents - dude what the fuck?) mention top10 wins numbers (based on the rankings at fights date)
win % - doesnt indicate anything due to the fact some fighters on the list are at the end of their careers while others are still in their prime


LOL

In all fairness, when someone is in their prime and seemingly unbeatable, don't they appear to be the greatest?

 

[ThunderStruck]

I think you also have to consider certain fighters leaving the sport, GSP, once he had his toughest fight (big rig). If GSP would come back to WW now, he would get murked. Also GSP ducked A Silva for many years, coming up with excuse after excuse, but then as soon as MW gets the weakest champ it has had in a super long time, only then does GSP want to go up to MW and fight. Also Bisping was landing pretty decent on GSP, so the top contenders at MW would definitely flat line him.

I think guys like A Silva and Fedor (though bellator is lacking) are at least fighting guys and not ducking like GSP. A Silva went up to LHW many times and even most recently went to fight Daniel C. GSP would never fucking do something like that.

You're so objective bro.

 

[gono btw]

But that doesnt make him a better fighter, only a better entertainer at the expense of his skills. Which is basically what he is admitting to here.

Cant be GOAT if ya dont D2BG.

 

[Chappi]

Not every catagory is of the same importance so awarding the same number of points for no 1-2-3-4-5-6 in every catagory doesn't make sense, simply because some things matter more then others and should get more points then others.
The smarter people already know there is no way to ever decide who is GOAT, it's a pointless and impossible discussion.

 

[JRubin]

Cant be GOAT if ya dont D2BG.

View attachment 520539

Cant be GOAT if you D2BG and fail miserably though, like Saku on how many occasions??

Since when did we start handing out gold medals for participation??

 

[painvelasquez]

First off, some people consider ''GOAT'' as someone who would win an open weight tournament during their ''prime'' (whatever that means), I believe that to be wrong simply because a guy like Mitrione isn't better than MM, yet would win a fight 99% of the time.
The results are the following:
1) GSP - 24 points
2) DC - 23 points
3a) Aldo - 17 points
3b) Jones - 17 points
5a) MM - 13 points
5b) Fedor - 13 points
7) Silva - 11 points

This list is as objective as it can get and a great representation of a real best P4P in history, in the accurate order.

Future contenders: Khabib, Holloway and Woodley.

So the fourth guy on your list beat the first guy twice (I get the peds asterisk, but seriously?). I like your attempt at fight math but doesn't entirely add up.

I think most reasonable minds would go something like Fedor - Jones - MM then Silva - Aldo - GSP. Cormier's great but I think he's too fresh of an addition to give anything beyond the bottom of the list, we have to see what his accomplishments look like in retrospect without all the hype. The UFC machine is strong.

 

[Brandon Wilson]

Cool another of these threads.

No one except a loser will read all that horseshit, TS.

Or you know, someone with an attention span bigger than a 4 yr olds.

But this is sherdog after all.

 

[Bodil]

So the fourth guy on your list beat the first guy twice (I get the peds asterisk, but seriously?). I like your attempt at fight math but doesn't entirely add up.

I think most reasonable minds would go something like Fedor - Jones - MM then Silva - Aldo - GSP. Cormier's great but I think he's too fresh of an addition to give anything beyond the bottom of the list, we have to see what his accomplishments look like in retrospect without all the hype. The UFC machine is strong.

The fact that you rank MM above GSP makes anything you say invalid.

 

[Fight Professor]

How the hell is DC ranked so high in the title reign? He has never beaten the real LHW champ and should be the last one there. His HW opponent list is not that strong except for Stipe.

 

[ermac88]

GSP and Fedor are tied goat.

Everyone else comes after.

Jones and Anderson are ruled irrelevant for multiple steroid busts.

Fedor NEVER participated under USADA or even in the big leagues. When he fought under sanction organizations he was getting destroyed.

GSP has had 1 fight under USADA and conveniently retired before they came to town.

Fighters not being held to same metric

 

[gono btw]

WTF ? This guy @gono btw is constantly hating on the GOAT GSP while accusing me of being Dominick Cruz (One of the GOATs) so i shouldnt really be surprised at all about him thinking that Sakuraba is the GOAT

Well? Are you Dominick Cruz or not?

Our friend is a man of...Thousands Faces...

 

[ermac88]

First off, some people consider ''GOAT'' as someone who would win an open weight tournament during their ''prime'' (whatever that means), I believe that to be wrong simply because a guy like Mitrione isn't better than MM, yet would win a fight 99% of the time.

The same names are brought up again and again: MM, DC, GSP, Jones, Silva, Fedor and Aldo So we will go with those 7. Anyone who believes anyone other than those 7 deserves GOAT status should not be taken seriously about anything MMA-related.

Now the most obvious part is out of the way, let's look at what makes someone resume ''GOAT'' worthy:

1) Finish %
2) Win %
3) Title reign (defenses, multiple titles)
4) Quality of opponents
5) Use of PEDs

FINISH % (based on the number of finishes divided by number of wins)
1a) Silva - 76%
1b) Fedor - 76%
3) Jones - 70%
4) DC - 68%
5) Aldo - 64%
6) MM - 59%
7) GSP - 54%

WIN % (based on the numbers of wins divided by total fights)
1) GSP - 93%
2a) Jones - 92%
2b) DC - 92%
4) Aldo - 88%
5) MM - 87%
6) Fedor 84%
7) Silva - 79%

Tile Reign (based on title wins in dif weight classes, total number of defenses, consecutive defenses, multiple weight titles)
1) GSP (9 WW defenses, MW champ, 16-2 in title fights)
2) DC (3 LHW defenses, 1 HW defense, LHW and HW champ 7-1-1 in title fights)
3) MM (11 defenses, 13-2-1 in title fights)
4) Silva (10 defenses, 11-2 in title fights)
5a) Jones (8 defenses, 11-0-1 in title fights)
5b) Aldo (9 defenses including WEC, 11-3 in title fights)
7) Fedor (3 pride HW defenses, 2 WAMMA HW defenses, no UFC titles)

Quality of opponents (based on opponents records and win streaks at the time of the fights, top 5 wins and top 10 wins)
1) GSP (most top 5 wins, most top 10wins, stopped insane streaks such as Fitch, Shields, etc.)
2) Jones (beat tons of former champs and legends of the sport)
3a) DC (decent lineup of opponents)
3b) Aldo (similar to DC)
5) Silva (MW was fairly weak at the time of the reign, no Romero, Rockold, etc.)
7a) MM (can barely name 5 note worthy opponents)
7b) Fedor (a lot of good wins and former UFC champs, but also a lot of freak shows)

Use of PEDs
1a) MM
1b) GSP
1c) DC
1d) Fedor
1e) Aldo
7a) Silva (caught on multiple occasions)
7b) Jones (nothing more needs to be said at this point)

Now let's look at this data with a point based system:
Rank 1 - 6 points
Rank 2 - 5 points
Rank 3 - 4 points
Rank 4 - 3 points
Rank 5 - 2 points
Rank 6 - 1 point
Rank 7 - 0 point

The results are the following:
1) GSP - 24 points
2) DC - 23 points
3a) Aldo - 17 points
3b) Jones - 17 points
5a) MM - 13 points
5b) Fedor - 13 points
7) Silva - 11 points

This list is as objective as it can get and a great representation of a real best P4P in history, in the accurate order.

Future contenders: Khabib, Holloway and Woodley.

Weird
why doesnt this list losses, title losses nor losses to fighters from lower weight classes
or quality of title defences?

agenda possibly?

 

[Brandon Wilson]

Fedor NEVER participated under USADA or even in the big leagues. When he fought under sanction organizations he was getting destroyed.

GSP has had 1 fight under USADA and conveniently retired before they came to town.

Fighters not being held to same metric

GSP retired 19 months before the UFC announced their partnership with USADA.

He retired because Dana and the UFC treated him (their biggest star at the time), like shit and refused to implement stricter testing.

He also was in the USADA testing pool for something like 14 months prior to the Bisping fight, and was tested 15 or so times under USADA.

Basically, you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

 

[dildos]

Fedor NEVER participated under USADA or even in the big leagues. When he fought under sanction organizations he was getting destroyed.

GSP has had 1 fight under USADA and conveniently retired before they came to town.

Fighters not being held to same metric

Shit up you dirty little whore.

 

[gono btw]

Cant be GOAT if you D2BG and fail miserably though, like Saku on how many occasions??

Since when did we start handing out gold medals for participation??

Ya really dont know what ya´re talkin´ about, dude.

While bums like ya wank off No Rush beatin´a bum like BS-Ping, SAKU G., as a natural WW, was beatin´:[in his prime]

LHWs: Vernon White,Vitor Gracie,Ebenezer Fontes Braga,Rampage,Randleman,Ken (out of his prime)

HW: Marcus Silveira,

Draw: Guy Mezger (LHW), Goes (LHW) [realistically lost this one]

Losses: Wand (LHW),Arona (LHW), Kimo (HW),Crocop (close fight and SAKU on top on the ground b4 the cut), Igor (close fight, after SAKU had battled durring 90 mns against Hoyce), Schembri.

See how clueless ya are...

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

First off, some people consider ''GOAT'' as someone who would win an open weight tournament during their ''prime'' (whatever that means), I believe that to be wrong simply because a guy like Mitrione isn't better than MM, yet would win a fight 99% of the time.

If you want to be objective, then you're going to have to explain this part a lot, lot better. Winning a fight is the most objective measurement of which fighter is superior. I think you probably mean that a guy like Mitrione isn't more skilled than MM, and I think pretty much all MMA fans would agree. But now you've already added an element of subjectivity, because you subjectively believe that skill should be isolated out as the key ingredient of the best fighter. But objective tests prove that hypothesis incorrect. Skill matters, but so do being big and fast to the extent that in the case of MM vs Mitrione, Matt's size and strength are clearly the key factor making him an objectively superior fighter to MM.

 

[ermac88]

GSP retired 19 months before the UFC announced their partnership with USADA.

He retired because Dana and the UFC treated him (their biggest star at the time), like shit and refused to implement stricter testing.

He also was in the USADA testing pool for something like 14 months prior to the Bisping fight, and was tested 15 or so times under USADA.

Basically, you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Umm how does that negate the fact that GSP had 1 career fight under USADA and left before they were implemented?

 

[ermac88]

Shit up you dirty little whore.

haha
triggered?