training of the pros mma

These threads are always a fucking train wreck.

Do pro fighters need to be strong? Yes. Do they need to squat/deadlift/bench? No.

But.

They are exercises which are very efficient at building very useful strength. You can get by without them, but if you want to focus on building strength in an easy, measurable, progressive and efficient manner, then they're very useful. Chances are that the ones who no longer use them will have used them to develop a strength base in the past, which can be easily maintained with whatever else.

You know why you never see pro fighters doing that stuff on the special programmes that give you a look into their training day?

Because A- it's not exciting or different, which won't generate ratings or interest in the fighter, and B- why would they want to actually be wanting to show their training strategies? Martin Rooney had a great bit to say on this:

"Think about it — if I'm training Jim Miller for a fight in two months, when the cameras arrive do I show how we really train, or do I try to psyche out my opponent's camp by having Jim swim in shark infested waters while I shoot flaming arrows at him?"

As well as saying:

"Squats, deadlifts, bench presses, power cleans; the basics, combined with some sprinting and some stretching. It may not be glamorous, but it makes you stronger and faster."

Joel Jamieson also espouses similar philosophies- basic fucking exercises, based on science. Two guys who have produced more high-level fighters than you'd care to name. Guys like Naudi Aguilar and Ido Portal haven't done anything by comparison.

You can have all the pseudo-science funky bullshit touch-butt stuff in the world, but if you want to make guys stronger, the most efficient exercises for that are variations of squats, deadlifts, presses and rows. There are some guys who are natural freaks, and you could have them be physical specimens by following a programme that mostly consists of unicycling and playing hopscotch.

You'll always get freaks of nature.

Most guys aren't.

Most guys are better off following a basic barbell programme to help develop a good base of strength. If you have a good base of strength, then you can start focusing more on exercises like bulgarian split squats, plyos, and gymnasty shit to get more of dat der athleticism, and chances are that the base you've developed will be relatively easy to maintain. But, getting to that point still requires an efficient method of developing that strength in the first place. Which most people creating threads here don't have. Which is why so much of the advice given is to follow basic powerlifting-based strength training programmes. I can guarantee if we had guys starting threads who were already at higher levels of athletic ability that the advice given would be very different.

I need a beer.
 
Cmart said:
I'm guessing that's shirted.
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That was his number when reported at LSU for a school record. It's talked about in forums and such prior to him being popular due to MMA. I highly doubt they do shirted lifts there. There is a good chance that they aren't strict with a bounce off the chest, but still an extremely strong lift. A 440 lbs power clean is pretty nuts for a non-oly lifter too.
 
Oblivian said:
That was his number when reported at LSU for a school record. It's talked about in forums and such prior to him being popular due to MMA. I highly doubt they do shirted lifts there. There is a good chance that they aren't strict with a bounce off the chest, but still an extremely strong lift. A 440 lbs power clean is pretty nuts for a non-oly lifter too.
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Well holy shit. That makes him very strong indeed, there are not that many 600+ raw benchers, period.

And that brings up a point I wanted to make, if this isn't beating a dead horse too much (yeah it probably is, but...):

The thread is about what mma athletes' numbers are like. What they can squat, bench, and/or deadlift. Not whether they do these lifts every day, every training session, or leading up to a fight. Are they capable of moving heavy weights or not?

I recall Ross Enamait silencing critics (who had never seen him deadlift and therefore assumed his deadlift was baby-weak) by deadlifting 495 handily just as a goof. He didn't train it but he was capable of it. Doing squats, benches, and deadlifts builds strength efficiently, but they aren't the only, exclusive route to building strength. And all fighters may not practice these lifts on a regular basis, but ,most fighters have trained for strength and would be reasonably to very strong if tested. It makes sense for them to be strong. It helps.

The contentions here that I want to counter are that:

1. Fighters don't lift heavy weights
2. Fighters aren't capable of lifting heavy weights

The first is very often untrue, as has been demonstrated here. The fact that there are only a handful of counterexamples really proves that point.

The second is even more often false, because even if the fighters aren't doing the exact powerlifts, or massive poundages on a regular basis, the vast majority of fighters are very strong people. Stronger than most of the people in this forum pound-for-pound, surely. Let's not be silly about it, we're not all professional athletes here, and there are only a few of us that consider ourselves powerlifters that are actually extremely strong. I'm certainly not extremely strong. Many mma'ers would beat me in a powerlifting competition. These are typically young, very lean, very strong guys. Good attributes for lifting heavy things power-to-weight ratio.

A trainer who contends "the strongest guy doesn't do best" is, in my opinion, being very shortsighted and/or foolish. We all understand fighting is about skill, skill, skill, then endurance, speed, flexibility, strength, mental ability, etc. but the person who poo-poos strength might as well neglect any other important factor in fighting, which is a mistake. Strength is so improvable that it can change a fighter's fortune from good to great. Can't change your reach or your height but you can sure as hell take a deadlift from 250 pounds to 450 pounds, and that makes a difference in a fight.

Otherwise, find me the quote where a losing fighter says "I was surprised how physically weak he was."

That's all I'm saying, end of my argument in this thread.
 
@ripskater

Holy fuck dude, how hard is it to just admit that you are wrong? Clearly most all MMA athletes at some point in their career have gone through regular barbell strength training, whether they do it currently or are still reaping the benefits of doing it earlier in their career. I'm sure you can find a couple idiots who say they don't need it, but literally every other sport in the world acknowledges that barbell training is a highly effective way to get stronger and faster.

Then again, I'm not surprised that you would be an idiot and deny science and reason. That's kind of your niche on this forum.

Also, go learn out the difference in the sport of powerlifting, and barbell strength training with squat, deadlift and bench press as primary movements. You confuse them nearly every single post.
 
jgarner said:
@ripskater

Holy fuck dude, how hard is it to just admit that you are wrong? Clearly most all MMA athletes at some point in their career have gone through regular barbell strength training,
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I agree. However some of the beltholders didn't rise throught the ranks using deadlift and back squat.
And I didn't say that^ was untrue. You guys keep making up stuff.

I just said that many of the guys in this forum have bigger numbers in deadlift and back squat than some of the mma belt holders. That is true, but people lose their mind over me saying that.
 
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ripskater said:
I agree. However some of the beltholders didn't rise throught the ranks using deadlift and back squat.
And I didn't say that^ was untrue. You guys keep making up stuff.

I just said that many of the guys in this forum have bigger numbers in deadlift and back squat than some of the mma belt holders. That is true, but people lose their mind over me saying that.
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Dude... You've clearly been trying to make the point that top fighters don't use barbell training and you're wrong. Most all of them are using those training methods. No shit a powerlifter lifts more than a strength athlete. Nobody you've argued with ever made that assertion.

The few exceptions who haven't used barbell strength training don't constitute the norm for beltholders. Most all of them strength train with barbells. The ones with injuries that prevent it, use the closest alternatives. You keep acting like the exceptions are the norm, and that's not the reality of the situation.
 
jgarner said:
Dude... You've clearly been trying to make the point that top fighters don't use barbell training and you're wrong.
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Go back and read this thread. I didn't say that.
Some top fighters do deadlift and back squat and some don't. There are some that do a little, but their numbers aren't all that special. In particular, some of the beltholders don't have great numbers in deadlift and squat.
 
ripskater said:
Go back and read this thread. I didn't say that.
Some top fighters do deadlift and back squat and some don't. There are some that do a little, but their numbers aren't all that special. In particular, some of the beltholders don't have great numbers in deadlift and squat.
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"Rarely did you see the belt holders at the top doing deadlifts and back squats."


That's literally from page one brother.
 
jgarner said:
"Rarely did you see the belt holders at the top doing deadlifts and back squats."


That's literally from page one brother.
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John Jones is the only beltholder that I've seen doing deadlifts and squats. And I'm talking with a barbell. BJ Penn did do them for one camp I saw. And he quit doing them.


Anderson Silva in one video above has like 120 pounds minus the band. That's not exactly earth shattering.

And most of the guys doing barbell deads and squats come from an American wrestling background.
 
ripskater said:
John Jones is the only beltholder that I've seen doing deadlifts and squats. And I'm talking with a barbell. BJ Penn did do them for one camp I saw.

Anderson Silva in one video above has like 120 pounds minus the band. That's not exactly earth shattering.

And most of the guys doing barbell deads and squats come from an American wrestling background.
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You sure are one stubborn motherfucker. You don't see most of them doing strength and conditioning because you don't follow them around to the gym. None of these guys are videotaping their entire gym sessions for the entire cycle. You don't see them taking shits either, but you know they do it. Almost all of them talk about doing barbell training at some point. The last four pages have been people showing that you are clearly wrong.

Nobody claimed they move earth shattering weight. We simply said they put a bar on their back and squat with it, and they pick up a bar off the ground at some point during their strength training because it works.

Even if some of them don't, they are stupid. Are NFL players slow and weak? Are hockey players slow and weak? Are Olympic athletes slow and weak? No, and all of them use barbell squats and deadlifts in their strength training because it works.
 
The Diaz bro don't powerlift, but do mountain bike and Triathlon.
Maia mainly train at bodyweight
Cerrone prefer doing crazy sports


Some guys wants to be as strong as they can, some will rely on their speed and flexibility, some on their cardio... You have to squats, bench press and deadlift up to a certain level for sure, but everyone needs to find the right balance within his own ability and way of fighting which means personalised S&C in regards to your strengths, technics and body's abilities.
More muscles will not always benefit you if your game is based on pace and volume for example.
Nick diaz could not fight as he fight if he would have Woodley's body and vice versa, same with Maia if he would be as big as Lombard and the list goes on.
 
ripskater said:
John Jones is the only beltholder that I've seen doing deadlifts and squats. And I'm talking with a barbell. BJ Penn did do them for one camp I saw. And he quit doing them.


Anderson Silva in one video above has like 120 pounds minus the band. That's not exactly earth shattering.

And most of the guys doing barbell deads and squats come from an American wrestling background.
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Is Anderson Silva a current beltholder?
 
jgarner said:
Almost all of them talk about doing barbell training at some point.
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I'm sure many have tried doing it. But many of them don't do deads and back squats. Like the Diaz brothers, I don't know if they deadlift and back squat. Probably not much if they did. Nick had a belt, and didn't strike me as the type to do it. There are many beltholders that you just don't see them doing these things.

Nobody claimed they move earth shattering weight.
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Plenty of people got pissed in this thread when I said that many people in this forum have better deadlift squat numbers than the mma beltholders.
Even if some of them don't, they are stupid. Are NFL players slow and weak? Are hockey players slow and weak? Are Olympic athletes slow and weak? No, and all of them use barbell squats and deadlifts in their strength training because it works.
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I think pretty much all top fighters are very strong. There is a difference between strength at deadlift and back squat and strength in the cage. Prime Anderson Silva would do what he wants if you get in his clench. You would say he's incredibly strong in the cage. But with deadlift and back squat, he would be unimpressive.
 
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