Would Aspinall have been ranked in the heyday of the UFC HW division?

[Superzorro]

No, it's not in the context of their career arcs.

Losing by sub when you're 22 in your 4th MMA fight is some sort of career defining thing? Are you actually retarded?

Gane was outgrappled by a striker Ngannou in UFC title fight. Then subbed without seeming to know anything about grappling by Jones in a 2nd consecutive UFC title fight. Then was just outgrappled by another striker Volkov in his last fight.

Seems like at some point if you're an elite HW in the top org you'd not continue to be dominated by grappling.

But yeah, instead fixate on a sub loss a decade ago by a guy who's shown no grappling deficiencies since.

Great logic!

So again, you're now trying to jump to an entirely different comparison to try and save face, which is strange because in the same post you're still defending the previous comparison.

The comparison was Gane getting submitted by Jones vs Aspinall getting submitted by Stuart Austin. Are we going to stick to that? Or are we going to jump to the Ngannou fight, which literally no one here brought up?

The stupidity of most MMA fans is so demoralizing. It's why I barely come on this site.

 

[mkess101]

...Wow. Forget being a "fighter" or "grappler," whatever it is you said. I'm having my doubts that you're even an adult. You're all over the place.

Weasel reply.

You're asking for another example of a "great HW" who looked that bad before they entered a worldwide organization. Okay. I need to know your definition of a "great" HW before providing examples don't I? Not complicated bucko.

Your facade is cracking. Type of guy that would've walked into my gym puffing out your chest and then getting humbled real quick when me or someone else got your neck.

 

[mkess101]

So again, you're now trying to jump to an entirely different comparison to try and save face, which is strange because in the same post you're still defending the previous comparison.

The comparison was Gane getting submitted by Jones vs Aspinall getting submitted by Stuart Austin. Are we going to stick to that? Or are we going to jump to the Ngannou fight, which literally no one here brought up?

The stupidity of most MMA fans is so demoralizing. It's why I barely come on this site.

Mark was using those two fights in a broader context to highlight the OVERALL grappling of each fighter. Not ONLY comparing those fights in a vacuum. It's his M.O.

You barely come on this site because you want to look knowledgeable and end up exposed.

 

[helooo]

Aspinall is clear as day one of the best HWs to come along in the past 5 years (him and Gane, somehow they haven't fought yet but they're the clear two best).

They both debuted around 5 years ago. Gane fearlessly climbed the ranks at light speed, with a title shot less than 2.5 years after his UFC debut (where he was shellacking Ngannou on the feet effortlessly like no one ever had before, but lost due to not being prepared for Ngannou's wrestling pivot).

Tom on the other hand hasn't fought anyone near the level of Ngannou yet, 5 years into his UFC debut. He won the title off his win over Sergei, who is a good reference point because he's a type fighter in today's division yet got streamrolled by a 38 year old way past prime Overeem inside a round.

Which brings me to the thread topic. Aspinall has been outside of the first round in only one UFC fight, and there's a reason for that, it's because he fought a HW from the better days of the division. Even though Arlovski was 42 and way past his prime, he gave Tom his toughest fight in the UFC so far. It really makes you wonder if Tom could've hung with that era.

Carwin: Shane had an incredible chin so good luck knocking him out in a round like this new generation. What does Tom do when his only gameplan doesn't work? Plus Shane had an collegiate champion wrestling background so the takedown wouldn't be an option either. Shane catches him with his legendary power and puts Tom to sleep. Yes JDS, who is a similar fighter to Tom at first glance, destroyed Carwin, but don't forget JDS back then had a granite chin and elite TDD, neither of which Tom has.

Cain: Destroys Tom similar to JDS 2 and 3 fights, except much GNP since Tom's TDD isn't as good.

JDS: Great fight, similar styles, coin toss.

Stipe: Can hang with Tom on the feet but way better wrestling. Stipe uses the same gameplan he used vs Hunt and wins a dominant UD, especially since Tom probably gasses fast from his explosive style and Stipe could go for days.

Werdum: Tom would probably win this fight due to Werdum's poor wrestling. Huge win for Aspinall as Werdum was a champ.

Overeem: I think Tom catches him and Overeem can't take the shots. Another huge win.

Brock: Unless Tom catches him early, Brock gets the takedown and absolutely mauls Aspinall on the ground. Stuart dominated Tom in wrestling and ground, and Brock was super elite in both areas. One of the best top games we've ever seen plus unlimited cardio.

Ngannou: Rock em sock em robots but Ngannou had an unbreak chin back then and more power. Tom can't play that game with Ngannou, he gets brutally slept.

So Tom goes 2-5 or at best 3-4 in the division if he manages to beat JDS. Either way it's a losing record and he's not ranked in the top 10. Tom is great for his current division but in see him very similar to a Miguel Torres, looks amazing for his division but it's more due to the level of competition.

Is the universe infinity

Aspinall is clear as day one of the best HWs to come along in the past 5 years (him and Gane, somehow they haven't fought yet but they're the clear two best).

They both debuted around 5 years ago. Gane fearlessly climbed the ranks at light speed, with a title shot less than 2.5 years after his UFC debut (where he was shellacking Ngannou on the feet effortlessly like no one ever had before, but lost due to not being prepared for Ngannou's wrestling pivot).

Tom on the other hand hasn't fought anyone near the level of Ngannou yet, 5 years into his UFC debut. He won the title off his win over Sergei, who is a good reference point because he's a type fighter in today's division yet got streamrolled by a 38 year old way past prime Overeem inside a round.

Which brings me to the thread topic. Aspinall has been outside of the first round in only one UFC fight, and there's a reason for that, it's because he fought a HW from the better days of the division. Even though Arlovski was 42 and way past his prime, he gave Tom his toughest fight in the UFC so far. It really makes you wonder if Tom could've hung with that era.

Carwin: Shane had an incredible chin so good luck knocking him out in a round like this new generation. What does Tom do when his only gameplan doesn't work? Plus Shane had an collegiate champion wrestling background so the takedown wouldn't be an option either. Shane catches him with his legendary power and puts Tom to sleep. Yes JDS, who is a similar fighter to Tom at first glance, destroyed Carwin, but don't forget JDS back then had a granite chin and elite TDD, neither of which Tom has.

Cain: Destroys Tom similar to JDS 2 and 3 fights, except much GNP since Tom's TDD isn't as good.

JDS: Great fight, similar styles, coin toss.

Stipe: Can hang with Tom on the feet but way better wrestling. Stipe uses the same gameplan he used vs Hunt and wins a dominant UD, especially since Tom probably gasses fast from his explosive style and Stipe could go for days.

Werdum: Tom would probably win this fight due to Werdum's poor wrestling. Huge win for Aspinall as Werdum was a champ.

Overeem: I think Tom catches him and Overeem can't take the shots. Another huge win.

Brock: Unless Tom catches him early, Brock gets the takedown and absolutely mauls Aspinall on the ground. Stuart dominated Tom in wrestling and ground, and Brock was super elite in both areas. One of the best top games we've ever seen plus unlimited cardio.

Ngannou: Rock em sock em robots but Ngannou had an unbreak chin back then and more power. Tom can't play that game with Ngannou, he gets brutally slept.

So Tom goes 2-5 or at best 3-4 in the division if he manages to beat JDS. Either way it's a losing record and he's not ranked in the top 10. Tom is great for his current division but in see him very similar to a Miguel Torres, looks amazing for his division but it's more due to the level of competition.

This bring us to our next coulda, woulda, shoulda questions like, is there a god, is the universe infinite, would Robin hood stand a chance against Miyamoto musashi if they fought in the Forrest or can 100 Gorillas (without weapons)take down a tyrant rex .......

 

[TeenageMutantLesnarTurtle]

The comparison was Gane getting submitted by Jones vs Aspinall getting submitted by Stuart Austin. Are we going to stick to that?

The entire frame of reference for Gane and Aspinalls grappling abilities should be based on Gane getting submitted by a better opponent while Tom got subbed by a lesser one when he was 22 years old a decade ago?

 

[mkess101]

The entire frame of reference for Gane and Aspinalls grappling abilities should be based on Gane getting submitted by a better opponent while Tom got subbed by a lesser one when he was 22 years old a decade ago?

Exactly. Trying to frame it that way is so comically disingenuous. They know it too. They just hope nobody will call them out on their bullshit.

 

[Superzorro]

The only decision was AAs decision to tap.

Okay change it to a round two submission or whatever it was that Aspinall got over him. My point still stands. Someone does that, they're not going to be as hyped as this guy is.

You think stopping Pav, Blaydes and Volkov in the first round is the equivalent of going to decision with Tim, and beating Big Country, Duffee and Mike Russow? really? I dont think Duffee and Russow are better than Spivac and Tybura never mind Pav etc.

So would you say Ray Mercer has a better win in MMA than Tom then? I mean, he stopped Tim in 10 seconds...

At the time, they were pretty highly touted. Now that we've seen them lose multiple times and get cut, it doesn't make sense. But remember, this is a hypothetical scenario that occurs in 2009.

Ray Mercer didn't beat the best Tim Sylvia. Tim wasn't even in the UFC at that point, and I think he was on a losing streak. If Ray Mercer beat UFC HW Champion Tim Sylvia, I'd say he has a better win than anyone on Tom's resume.

Mir also managed to get stopped in the first round by 5'9 slow flat footed Ian Freeman, Brandon Vera and the 1-0 at the time Marcio Cruz. Yes he had some great wins over the years but theres nothing to say he has an easy time with Tom or even several of the guys Tom beat.

Mir did great things against great opponents though. These guys haven't done anything.

Ah yes Brock is better everywhere...including striking...lol what?

Brock would need to wrestlefuck Blaydes, which on paper wouldnt be easy. Nowadays it'd probably be a 5 rounder by default too. Pav would also be a scary fight for Brock as he seems to have enough wrestling to force Brock into stand up situations, and the power to hurt him quick in those situations.



Brock is a perfect example of a guy being overrated due to nostalgia and being around during a more exciting time. If you really break down his career its..

- Scraping past Carwin (the "legend" who was in the UFC a total of 3 years and had three career victories over guys with wiki pages) by the skin of his teeth after taking a massive ass kicking.

- Going 1-1 with Mir, a guy who, while absolutely capable of being very good at times, by that time also had first round losses to Ian Freeman, Brandon Vera and a guy who had had one MMA fight, which apparently isnt worse than losing to Derrick Lewis.

- A 45 year old who would be considered on the small side for LHW now

- 42 year old one dimensional career journeyman Mark Hunt

- Heath Herring, who (kind of) retired right after.


Guy had less than 10 fights in his entire career and his wins arent any better than Toms, but Tom is regarded as practically a prospect who is "unproven".

I'm going to stop you right there. Curtis Blaydes isn't a striker; he has no hands. The difference between them standing, if there is one, is negligible at best.
Brock Lesnar is better than Curtis Blaydes, skill wise, resume wise, accomplishment wise, athletically-- you name it.

The point is, if you're gonna write someone off for getting caught by Derrick Lewis, you can find similar or worse losses for plenty of great fighters. Obviously CC had some bad losses in the UFC as well but with the Randleman one at least there isnt the "he wasnt in his prime" argument.

You're missing a key element though. The people that I'm talking about have done great things to counteract, sometimes even overwrite those losses. What has Volkov done?? What did Pavlovich do?? Volkov and Pavlovich are nowhere near the level of Mir or Cro Cop.

Just like with the "AA is Toms best win" narrative that some people weirdly try to push, what you have done throughout the course of your entire career does not define how good you are at fighting at an exact moment in time, in this case we are talking an ATG Randy Couture.....but in his mid 40s fighting at HW. Let me guess...you think he'd have beaten Pav, Blaydes and Volkov too?

I'm going to ask you a question to get you to think. What has Volkov and Pavlovich done in their careers for you to say that they could beat Randy Couture? Why do you rate these guys so highly? Is it because they're related to Aspinall? I don't get it. Let them DO the work, before we put them on the level of those guys. Stop giving them the benefit of the doubt and saying they can do things they haven't proven to be able to do.

 

[spinup]

The only known weakness of Aspinall (ignoring very early career) is that he is hittable when he engages.

I don't see how you can speculate about any wrestler or grappler beating him when we just can't know.

 

[Superzorro]

Mark was using those two fights in a broader context to highlight the OVERALL grappling of each fighter. Not ONLY comparing those fights in a vacuum. It's his M.O.

You barely come on this site because you want to look knowledgeable and end up exposed.

Dude YOU were the one stating that Tom getting caught in a heel hook 10 years ago was worse "by every metric imaginable" than Gane tapping to Jones.

And I'm referring EXCLUSIVELY to that comparison part of the argument.

It's kinda funny people call Gane 1 dimensional when he's got the same amount of sub wins and losses as Tom.

Except his sub loss was to Jon Jones and not Stuart Austin.

Is this where you're saying he's comparing the overall grappling of each fighter? I don't see that at all. There's no such claim made here. This in no way asserts or even implies the claim that Gane has better grappling than Aspinall. If anything, it's "let's cool it on this idea that Gane is just an infant on the ground because he lost by submission to Jones, which is entailed in a lot of arguments made by Aspinall fans." He can correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Superzorro]

The entire frame of reference for Gane and Aspinalls grappling abilities should be based on Gane getting submitted by a better opponent while Tom got subbed by a lesser one when he was 22 years old a decade ago?

Find me where the guy said that Gane is a better grappler than Aspinall. He's comparing two losses, that's it. This whole "entire frame of reference for grappling abilities" is something that you've introduced into the discussion because it offended you.

 

[markg171]

Lets just take this back to the core of the argument....are you saying Ciryl Gane is a better grappler than Tom Aspinall?

Getting back to the core of the argument I said it's funny Gane get's called 1 dimensional despite having just as many sub wins and losses as Tom, except his loss is to better competition.

 

[TeenageMutantLesnarTurtle]

At the time, they were pretty highly touted. Now that we've seen them lose multiple times and get cut, it doesn't make sense. But remember, this is a hypothetical scenario that occurs in 2009.

I recall Duffee having a little bit of hype behind him but he literally lost his second UFC fight and then left. It was snuffed out incredibly quickly. Not remotely comparable to something like Pav riding a six fight round 1 KO streak at UFC level.

Ray Mercer didn't beat the best Tim Sylvia. Tim wasn't even in the UFC at that point, and I think he was on a losing streak. If Ray Mercer beat UFC HW Champion Tim Sylvia, I'd say he has a better win than anyone on Tom's resume.

Iirc Tim was still ranked in the top 5 on here at the time. His previous fight was literally Fedor at the time where Fedor was still unbeaten, widely regarded as the no1 HW and high up on p4p lists.

Yeah he was probably past his best but he'd only lost the title 2 years earlier, and fought for the interim a little over a year earlier. He wasnt washed enough to excuse losing like that.

Mir did great things against great opponents though. These guys haven't done anything.

Blaydes - Volkov, Jailton, Rozenstruik, JDS, Reem, Hunt, Oleinik

Pav - Blayes, Lewis, Rozenstruik, Tuivasa

Volkov - Pav, Rozenstruik, Reem, Werdum, Tuivasa, Struve, Big Country, Ivanov, robbed vs Gane.

Not saying those are ATG resumes, and yeah several of the names were past their prime (so were CC and Nog when Mir beat them though), but to say they havent done anything is selling them short.

I'm going to stop you right there. Curtis Blaydes isn't a striker; he has no hands. The difference between them standing, if there is one, is negligible at best.

LOL geez....

How do you think Blaydes vs Brock in a boxing or kickboxing match would go?

Brock Lesnar is better than Curtis Blaydes, skill wise, resume wise, accomplishment wise, athletically-- you name it.

We've just been through Brocks resume, it literally isnt better than Blaydes as far as depth goes. You could argue that Carwin is the best win either guy has, I might even agree with you if you did, but that would also require you to show faith in Carwins ability based on the eye test in spite of his total lack of resume, which is something you're not doing for Tom.

I'm going to ask you a question to get you to think. What has Volkov and Pavlovich done in their careers for you to say that they could beat Randy Couture? Why do you rate these guys so highly?

You're asking me to justify why I think a 6'0 220lb guy in his mid 40s who at the time of the Tim fight had just gone 2-3 in his last 5 at LHW....might not beat Pav, Blaydes and Volkov? really?

It isnt anything to do with rating those guys particularly highly. I actually dont rate them all that highly, but I also dont think beating them is comparable to beating Todd Duffee.

 

[markg171]

The only known weakness of Aspinall (ignoring very early career) is that he is hittable when he engages.

I don't see how you can speculate about any wrestler or grappler beating him when we just can't know.

We can't speculate about his defensive grappling because they haven't been tested since the last time they were when he got submitted?

That seems convenient.

 

[TeenageMutantLesnarTurtle]

Getting back to the core of the argument I said it's funny Gane get's called 1 dimensional despite having just as many sub wins and losses as Tom.

Find me where the guy said that Gane is a better grappler than Aspinall. He's comparing two losses, that's it. This whole "entire frame of reference for grappling abilities" is something that you've introduced into the discussion because it offended you.

So what exactly is the point of the argument if it isnt to suggest that Gane is equal to or better than Tom in grappling?

Obviously the context is that Jon was willing to face Gane because he knew Gane was weak to grappling, but is less willing to fight Tom because he feels that Tom is more capable of forcing him to stand, and more capable of hurting him when they do, same as Ngannou.

 

[markg171]

And I'm referring EXCLUSIVELY to that comparison part of the argument.



Is this where you're saying he's comparing the overall grappling of each fighter? I don't see that at all. There's no such claim made here. This in no way asserts or even implies the claim that Gane has better grappling than Aspinall. If anything, it's "let's cool it on this idea that Gane is just an infant on the ground because he lost by submission to Jones, which is entailed in a lot of arguments made by Aspinall fans." He can correct me if I'm wrong.

Exactly. You'd think Gane was the one who got subbed by Stuart Austin the way they talk.

 

[markg171]

So what exactly is the point of the argument if it isnt to suggest that Gane is equal to or better than Tom in grappling?

Obviously the context is that Jon was willing to face Gane because he knew Gane was weak to grappling, but is less willing to fight Tom because he feels that Tom is more capable of forcing him to stand, and more capable of hurting him when they do, same as Ngannou.

Jon knew Gane was weak to grappling despite never yet being submitted?

But won't fight Tom who's already been submitted?

Okay there.

 

[TeenageMutantLesnarTurtle]

Jon knew Gane was weak to grappling despite never yet being submitted?

But won't fight Tom who's already been submitted?

Okay there.

Did you forget the part where Jon watched Gane get outwrestled by Ngannou 2 fights before Jon fought him?

So why then, in your opinion, do you think Jon magically popped up at HW after Ngannou left, immediately fought Gane with zero drama, but 2+ years later hasnt fought anyone else aside from a 42 year old who hadnt won a fight in over 4 years?

 

[TeenageMutantLesnarTurtle]

The information that Jon had available on Gane when he signed to fight him:

- Worse at grappling than Ngannou
- Potentially had been kept away from grapplers to hide this deficit, most notably Blaydes who had fought literally every other prospect of that era on their way up.
- Doesnt have anywhere near Ngannou power, or Tom power, to be able to turn the fight on its head at any second.
- Had just taken 3 rounds to dispose of Tai, and got rocked in the process.

Is it really that hard to see why he'd be more comfortable fighting Gane than he was fighting Ngannou and now Tom?

 

[mkess101]

And I'm referring EXCLUSIVELY to that comparison part of the argument.



Is this where you're saying he's comparing the overall grappling of each fighter? I don't see that at all. There's no such claim made here. This in no way asserts or even implies the claim that Gane has better grappling than Aspinall. If anything, it's "let's cool it on this idea that Gane is just an infant on the ground because he lost by submission to Jones, which is entailed in a lot of arguments made by Aspinall fans." He can correct me if I'm wrong.

Of course you "don't see that at all". Because you don't want to. And because you (maybe--or you have and are being disingenuous) haven't seen his bazillion other posts on the topic of Aspinall where he either implies or says it. Mark's entire purpose on this site is to shit talk Aspinall/glaze Jones. That's it.

 

[mkess101]

Getting back to the core of the argument I said it's funny Gane get's called 1 dimensional despite having just as many sub wins and losses as Tom, except his loss is to better competition.

Convenient that you leave out Gane being outgrappled by two strikers in Ngannou and Volkov while Tom subbed Volkov inside a round.