Would Aspinall have been ranked in the heyday of the UFC HW division?

[Tweak896]

Saying that Jones is the only one with a skillset to challenge Aspinall doesn't really mean anything though, if they're the only two decent fighters. Before Jones, it was a forty year old Arlovski. You see what I mean? Like you could say that about anyone who is above average; the bar is extremely low right now.

And yeah, I agree. I was being sarcastic in the post you quoted. There are really, real-life people on this Earth who genuinely believe Tom Aspinall could challenge DC and Cain in wrestling or Overeem in striking.
Most of the people mentioned in the original post would get in there and mop the floor with this kid. I'd put money on it. And if Jon Jones was the same size and age as him, I promise they would not be asking for the fight like this. I promise.

I meant HW division sucks. Arlovski was beyond washed and odds reflected he had no chance. But the funny part is that if you go back and read comments on Aspinall prior to Pavlovich KO, there is nothing attributed to him. Just a guy with decent striking and decent BJJ and happens to be younger. None of the hype today he has. His prior fights were basically all assumed outcomes and didn't impress most people.

Everyone was on the Pavlovich train and then after they fought, the entire hypetrain loaded over to Aspinall hypetrain. It's very bizarre how 2 fights in UFC gave Aspinall superhuman abilities from guys who have lost even worse by other fighters.

 

[mkess101]

It matters because the person I was responding to said "all Carwin had was power and 1 round gas tank." I was pointing out that if that's the complaint against Carwin, Aspinall is the same or worse in both regards.

My comment was more regarding you ranking Carwin higher on an all time list. That's ridiculous. Aspinall's only loss in the UFC is a freak non contact injury that he avenged with KO. Carwin won 4 total UFC fights.

And even just your assertion about gas tanks makes zero sense. We SAW Carwin gas after a round. We know his cardio was trash. Aspinall is an unknown, so no he's not "the same or worse". He's never LOST a fight due to gassing. Carwin did. And Aspinall is also miles better technically, faster, and just an all around FAR more skilled guy. It's not close.

 

[TeenageMutantLesnarTurtle]

There are really, real-life people on this Earth who genuinely believe Tom Aspinall could challenge DC and Cain in wrestling or Overeem in striking.
Most of the people mentioned in the original post would get in there and mop the floor with this kid. I'd put money on it.

Theres no way of knowing either way. He hasnt fought anyone on their level but that also means he hasnt shown his ceiling.

Bear in mind Reem got KTFO by Chuck in his skinny days and also by Bigfoot, Browne and Rothwell not all that long after his K1 days too. its not like he was untouchable standing.

And "prime" Cain barely ever showed up and also got hurt multiple times by Kongo, then ultimately shit the bed hard against a nearly 40 year old Werdum, so again, great as he was, its not like he was always perfect either.

And if Jon Jones was the same size and age as him, I promise they would not be asking for the fight like this. I promise.

Lol. He is calling out the one guy ranked ahead of him and the guy he can unify the belt with. Its not like hes opportunistically picking on poor old man Jon.

 

[mkess101]

I meant HW division sucks. Arlovski was beyond washed and odds reflected he had no chance. But the funny part is that if you go back and read comments on Aspinall prior to Pavlovich KO, there is nothing attributed to him. Just a guy with decent striking and decent BJJ and happens to be younger. None of the hype today he has. His prior fights were basically all assumed outcomes and didn't impress most people.

Everyone was on the Pavlovich train and then after they fought, the entire hypetrain loaded over to Aspinall hypetrain. It's very bizarre how 2 fights in UFC gave Aspinall superhuman abilities from guys who have lost even worse by other fighters.

"Everyone" wasn’t on the Pav train vs Tom. I bet Tom and had to pay a little juice, he was favored. My only regret was not going heavier. It was so easy to see his speed and accuracy would smoke Pav who was knocking guys out coming forward winging wide punches.

 

[Tweak896]

"Everyone" wasn’t on the Pav train vs Tom. I bet Tom and had to pay a little juice, he was favored. My only regret was not going heavier. It was so easy to see his speed and accuracy would smoke Pav who was knocking guys out coming forward winging wide punches.

I dunno, you could read most of what you have heard about Tom come from Pavlovich threads, in relation to Jones. And before that Ngannou. There has been this "Jones is going to be KO'd by the first heavy punching HW he faces that is his size". I just see the parallels.

 

[mkess101]

I dunno, you could read most of what you have heard about Tom come from Pavlovich threads, in relation to Jones. And before that Ngannou. There has been this "Jones is going to be KO'd by the first heavy punching HW he faces that is his size". I just see the parallels.

There's always gonna be some people voicing that stuff. The betting lines are a far better indicator of what people truly think. We can yap on this forum with no repercussions. When you put your $ behind your view, you need to be right more than you're wrong or you're gonna be poorer.

But the only parallels between Tom and Pav is that they're HW's that get KO's. How they get them is wildly different. Like I said, Pav wings power hooks as he rushes in. Good enough to overwhelm some guys absolutely but it was just so easy for me (and others, like I said Tom was the betting favorite) to see the skill and speed difference between them.

 

[bubbleboyjones]

It's weird that people think they have to choose.

Thats the title of the thread "Would Aspinall have been ranked in the heyday of the UFC HW division?"

Someone said JDS's boxing was nostalgia bias so I responded. I didn't even say JDS would beat him for sure, but I think his boxing power is scarier just like I think Ngannou's is scarier. Call it a hunch or eyetest and I know I am repeating myself but he cleanly KO arguably two of the top 5 HWs of all time(or close to) before anyone else did and they were not old overthehill shit versions that had lots of damage. The best with have with Tom is what? Sergei who got smoked by an overthehill Overeem. Blaydes and Tybura has been KO multiple times....etc? Is it his fault the division sucks no but i am also not giving magical credit either when I've seen other guys actually do it cleanly against historical top tier guys.

 

[mkess101]

Thats the title of the thread "Would Aspinall have been ranked in the heyday of the UFC HW division?"

Someone said JDS's boxing was nostalgia bias so I responded. I didn't even say JDS would beat him for sure, but I think his boxing power is scarier just like I think Ngannou's is scarier. Call it a hunch or eyetest and I know I am repeating myself but he cleanly KO arguably two of the top 5 HWs of all time(or close to) before anyone else did and they were not old overthehill shit versions that had lots of damage. The best with have with Tom is what? Sergei who got smoked by an overthehill Overeem. Blaydes and Tybura has been KO multiple times....etc? Is it his fault the division sucks no but i am also not giving magical credit either when I've seen other guys actually do it cleanly against historical top tier guys.

Right and when I say it's weird people feel they have to choose I don’t mean in answering the original question of if he'd be ranked. I think that those who feel he wouldn't even be ranked are either completely blinded by nostalgia or don't understand what they're watching when they view this sport. There's absolutely no question he'd be ranked.

What I meant was specifically choosing in a particular matchup like vs JDS. Sure it's fun to speculate but those who plant a flag (this isn't you specifically but just those who do) and think they "know" how he'd fare vs JDS, Cain, etc are weird.

And yes HW is historically weak but he's not winning close fights or going to decision. These are still top 10 guys, not regional bums but he's (so far) making them LOOK like regional bums. And HOW he's winning matters. Lightning quick counter KO's. Taking down guys and subbing them easily. To not be impressed...weird.

 

[TeenageMutantLesnarTurtle]

Thats the title of the thread "Would Aspinall have been ranked in the heyday of the UFC HW division?"

Someone said JDS's boxing was nostalgia bias so I responded. I didn't even say JDS would beat him for sure, but I think his boxing power is scarier just like I think Ngannou's is scarier. Call it a hunch or eyetest and I know I am repeating myself but he cleanly KO arguably two of the top 5 HWs of all time(or close to) before anyone else did and they were not old overthehill shit versions that had lots of damage. The best with have with Tom is what? Sergei who got smoked by an overthehill Overeem. Blaydes and Tybura has been KO multiple times....etc? Is it his fault the division sucks no but i am also not giving magical credit either when I've seen other guys actually do it cleanly against historical top tier guys.

Ngannou stands at the absolute top of the pile in terms of sheer one shot power imo, its not close.

I dont think JDS necessarily hits harder than Tom, I mean hes about 20lbs lighter while if anything being a little less explosive. I think on a technical level his hands were crisper though.

 

[Mohawk Banditó]

Talking about lying, don't you have some work to do?

Or wait, we have established you're a liar....maybe a compulsive liar hehe

This is all the truth about that fight that anyone needs. It's slowed down and detailed in text.

Pot meet kettle. You're an obnoxious twat and don't even have the courtesy to be clever.

I've always said the trick to being a smartass is getting the "smart" part down first.

Anything else just makes them look like a dumbass. And that's a LOT of Sherdog

 

[Superzorro]

"How dare you use hyperbole, only I can use hyperbole"
As you say, "incredible" post

No, go ahead and post for me some examples of Jones "bitching" online. Now for the part where you're saying I'm using hyperbole - are you really telling me, that if I click on your profile, I won't see an army of posts of you complaining about Jon Jones? I haven't checked, but I don't think I have to; I think we both know that's all you do on here.

Pav is bringing his hands back AFTER having thrown a punch. But that's why that speed is such a game changer. Against other guys, Pav is safe there. He threw and it drew a reaction, Tom had to slide a little. That mini reset gives Pav enough time vs anyone else to get back to a sound defensive position. But Tom's return gets there faster, and instead of whiffing like other guys would in that spot, it lands on Pav's temple and the 2nd shot lands clean too.

Yes, someone may come along that can match what Tom brings. I'd argue you're underselling his skills and saying he's "clumsy" isn’t accurate. I can find examples where every HW ever (including all time greats) look less than coordinated. Tom isn't the MOST skilled HW, not claiming that. But his skill combined with his athletic ability is a nightmare.

And you gotta read what I actually type. I'm not saying he's proven he **would** do that to DC or Cain or JDS. I'm saying it's an unknown. I watched all the fights of all those guys. And I'm not gonna short sell them because they WERE truly elite. But Tom moves better, faster and has some attributes none of them did. Now THEY also had some that he doesn't have (or at least hasn't shown). So of course there's a very real chance in this hypothetical that they'd implement their gameplan and beat him. There's also a chance that he's every bit as good as he's shown by dispatching everyone so easily and he belongs right in that mix of the guys we're talking about. That's the beauty of these conversations. We will never know what Aspinall vs prime Cain looks like. We just have conjecture.

...No he's not. I can already tell. You didn't watch the fight again.

Let me help you out. Where's the punch? That was a whole five seconds.

Those examples are probably against fighters that are actually good though. Can you find me examples of the great heavyweights getting submitted in their prime before they even hit a world level?

Using that logic, it's an unknown for everybody who hasn't been in the cage with them. I'm basing what I'm saying off of what we've seen. I can say it's likely he's faster. But I can't say he moves better until I see him fight someone who's actually good.

Theres no way of knowing either way. He hasnt fought anyone on their level but that also means he hasnt shown his ceiling.

Bear in mind Reem got KTFO by Chuck in his skinny days and also by Bigfoot, Browne and Rothwell not all that long after his K1 days too. its not like he was untouchable standing.

And "prime" Cain barely ever showed up and also got hurt multiple times by Kongo, then ultimately shit the bed hard against a nearly 40 year old Werdum, so again, great as he was, its not like he was always perfect either.

Yeah, "it's an unknown," "it's impossible to tell." I get it. But here's the thing. Using that same logic, you could hype up a guy off of the street. For me to start saying it's a 60/40 fight against legends, you have to show me. You can't just beat bums. Tom Aspinall is one of the few guys in recent history where they don't have to even put the work in before people are saying he would topple the giants. You saw how much work Kamaru Usman or Tyron Woodley had to put in before people would even acknowledge they could even begin, to think about holding GSP's jockstrap? That's how it should be.

Cain had his moments, sure. But he fought and sometimes beat a good number of the best the UFC had to offer. I think that same Werdum submits Aspinall. I also think Cain at his best would beat the diggity dumb dog shit out of Aspinall. We're talking about him at his absolute peak. The level he reached when he put hands on JDS in the second fight was pretty unprecedented. But uh yeah, what about Fedor? It's pretty convenient to only cherry pick one of the names mentioned.

 

[TeenageMutantLesnarTurtle]

Yeah, "it's an unknown," "it's impossible to tell." I get it. But here's the thing. Using that same logic, you could hype up a guy off of the street.

Any guy off the street isnt going 8-1 in the UFC with the one loss being from a freak injury that was then avenged, 7 of the 8 wins being in the first round and none of them going the distance.

I get that this isnt a particularly strong HW era, but even so, what hes doing is not the norm.

For me to start saying it's a 60/40 fight against legends, you have to show me. You can't just beat bums.

I do agree that people can get carried away with hyping him up but then you have people who go too far in the opposite direction too and act like every name from the good old days would have wrecked him.

His competition isnt great but I think how "bad" it is it gets overstated too. If this was like 2009 and someone had stopped lets say Tim, post Pride Nog and Mir in the first round they'd be getting plenty of hype. Would Tim, Nog and Mir all go 3-0 if they fought Pav, Blaydes and Volkov? I highly doubt that. Theres a decent chance the "bums" of today would win more often.

Cain had his moments, sure. But he fought and sometimes beat a good number of the best the UFC had to offer. I think that same Werdum submits Aspinall. I also think Cain at his best would beat the diggity dumb dog shit out of Aspinall. We're talking about him at his absolute peak. The level he reached when he put hands on JDS in the second fight was pretty unprecedented. But uh yeah, what about Fedor? It's pretty convenient to only cherry pick one of the names mentioned.

Like I said, i'm not gonna be favouring Tom to beat Cain or Fedor, or DC, not now and probably not ever, even if he beats Jon and Ngannou.

 

[mkess101]

No, go ahead and post for me some examples of Jones "bitching" online. Now for the part where you're saying I'm using hyperbole - are you really telling me, that if I click on your profile, I won't see an army of posts of you complaining about Jon Jones? I haven't checked, but I don't think I have to; I think we both know that's all you do on here.



...No he's not. I can already tell. You didn't watch the fight again.

Let me help you out. Where's the punch? That was a whole five seconds.

Those examples are probably against fighters that are actually good though. Can you find me examples of the great heavyweights getting submitted in their prime before they even hit a world level?

Using that logic, it's an unknown for everybody who hasn't been in the cage with them. I'm basing what I'm saying off of what we've seen. I can say it's likely he's faster. But I can't say he moves better until I see him fight someone who's actually good.



Yeah, "it's an unknown," "it's impossible to tell." I get it. But here's the thing. Using that same logic, you could hype up a guy off of the street. For me to start saying it's a 60/40 fight against legends, you have to show me. You can't just beat bums. Tom Aspinall is one of the few guys in recent history where they don't have to even put the work in before people are saying he would topple the giants. You saw how much work Kamaru Usman or Tyron Woodley had to put in before people would even acknowledge they could even begin, to think about holding GSP's jockstrap? That's how it should be.

Cain had his moments, sure. But he fought and sometimes beat a good number of the best the UFC had to offer. I think that same Werdum submits Aspinall. I also think Cain at his best would beat the diggity dumb dog shit out of Aspinall. We're talking about him at his absolute peak. The level he reached when he put hands on JDS in the second fight was pretty unprecedented. But uh yeah, what about Fedor? It's pretty convenient to only cherry pick one of the names mentioned.

Where's the punch? He (Pav) throws a feeler jab and then is throwing a wide left hook when Aspinall counters with the short right that lands on his temple. I did mistake that Pav was already resetting, he's actually in the process of throwing a wide left hook when Aspinall clips him. Pav's punch never comes close to getting there obviously because 1) Aspinall's is a short, more straight shot while Pav's is a looping sloppy hook and 2) Aspinall is just eons faster. But you can see literally right in your gif Pav throwing the wide looping left as he's hit.

And as for Aspinall being subbed...I really would never say a 22 year old (especially at HW) in their 4th pro fight is their "prime" and not exactly sure why you would either. But if you want another example? How about JDS getting armbarred in a minute in his 5th pro fight in some random Brazilian regional org by a guy that never made it off the regional scene? That good enough for ya? Or is JDS not a great fighter to you? (And JDS was 27 vs Aspinall 22, so in terms of "prime" I'd say JDS should've been more peak physically and more mentally mature given the age of each).

 

[BigNick100]

Any guy off the street isnt going 8-1 in the UFC with the one loss being from a freak injury that was then avenged, 7 of the 8 wins being in the first round and none of them going the distance.

I get that this isnt a particularly strong HW era, but even so, what hes doing is not the norm.



I do agree that people can get carried away with hyping him up but then you have people who go too far in the opposite direction too and act like every name from the good old days would have wrecked him.

His competition isnt great but I think how "bad" it is it gets overstated too. If this was like 2009 and someone had stopped lets say Tim, post Pride Nog and Mir in the first round they'd be getting plenty of hype. Would Tim, Nog and Mir all go 3-0 if they fought Pav, Blaydes and Volkov? I highly doubt that. Theres a decent chance the "bums" of today would win more often.



Like I said, i'm not gonna be favouring Tom to beat Cain or Fedor, or DC, not now and probably not ever, even if he beats Jon and Ngannou.

Well he still has more KO’s to get before pasting the real GOAT of the HW division, Derek B Lewis!

Lewis holds the record for most KO at 15.

ofcourse that’s a joke if anyone didn’t realize.

But Tom has been blasting people and he does have skills, no doubt.

But he also untested in a long fight and we don’t know what Tom is like a fight that has to go past round 2. He has never seen a round 3 in his life lol. It will be curious to see if we ever get Tom in a longer fight if he can keep that speed and stay light on his feet the longer the fight goes.

But if gets blasting people then he doesn’t need to go past round 2 lol.

 

[JustforBROCK]

I meant HW division sucks. Arlovski was beyond washed and odds reflected he had no chance. But the funny part is that if you go back and read comments on Aspinall prior to Pavlovich KO, there is nothing attributed to him. Just a guy with decent striking and decent BJJ and happens to be younger. None of the hype today he has. His prior fights were basically all assumed outcomes and didn't impress most people.

Everyone was on the Pavlovich train and then after they fought, the entire hypetrain loaded over to Aspinall hypetrain. It's very bizarre how 2 fights in UFC gave Aspinall superhuman abilities from guys who have lost even worse by other fighters.

lol what? This is not true at all. There was plenty of Hype behind him before that fight. It may have cooled slightly after he hurt his knee, but saying Aspinal was considered 'not impressive' by the MMA community is insanely stupid and not true.

 

[Tweak896]

lol what? This is not true at all. There was plenty of Hype behind him before that fight. It may have cooled slightly after he hurt his knee, but saying Aspinal was considered 'not impressive' by the MMA community is insanely stupid and not true.

Hey I didn't make it up, I read so many old post fight threads on Aspinall here and people were mostly lukewarm. Compared to Ngannou fighting nobodys, he had major hype the way he finished.

 

[WanderLogun]

I think Tom's grappling will be evidenced as equal to, or better than his striking. If it ever needs to go that far

 

[markg171]

I think Tom's grappling will be evidenced as equal to, or better than his striking. If it ever needs to go that far

A lot of reckless offence at the expense of his defence?

 

[JustforBROCK]

Hey I didn't make it up, I read so many old post fight threads on Aspinall here and people were mostly lukewarm. Compared to Ngannou fighting nobodys, he had major hype the way he finished.

No, you absolutely made it up. If you came to this conclusion based on posts you saw on sherdog ... well .. Im going to try not to be insulting here but that is fucking stupid.

 

[TeenageMutantLesnarTurtle]

A lot of reckless offence at the expense of his defence?

Hes got one legitimate loss 10 years ago. I agree he seems reckless at times, but for whatever reason his opponents arent able to capitalize on it.