Why do repeated cleans leave me sucking wind?

STWACOACH said:
It's not aerobic? That's odd, it leaves you sucking wind does it not? Think about it man.
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I did think about it. Cleans are anaerobic, and you need oxygen after that to oxidize the lactic acid that builds up after completing the anaerobic exercise.
 
Hahahaha. OK let me explain this to you, as seriously lately you have posted some insane shit. They are anaerobic in the sense that it takes muscle useage to make the weight move etc. It is aerobic in the sense that VO2 max is still maxed, and maintained for a period of time, during and after the set, which concludes into making it METCON, which is NOT complicated. Don't try and teach me something when you don't know what the hell you are talking about.
 
STWACOACH said:
Hahahaha. OK let me explain this to you, as seriously lately you have posted some insane shit. They are anaerobic in the sense that it takes muscle useage to make the weight move etc. It is aerobic in the sense that VO2 max is still maxed, and maintained for a period of time, during and after the set, which concludes into making it METCON, which is NOT complicated. Don't try and teach me something when you don't know what the hell you are talking about.
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do you feel smart now?
 
STWACOACH said:
They are anaerobic in the sense that it takes muscle useage to make the weight move etc.
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?! No, cleans are anaerobic because they are a brief high-intensity exercise in which the energy is generated in the muscle anaerobically, resulting in a buildup of lactic acid.
 
Wasn't trying to sound smart. But if someone told you that you don't know anything about your job how would you take it? Frankly, I answered his question, which if he already KNEW the answer or didn't want to hear the right one, why ask? not my fault if I have to break it down for him.


It's a simple natural balance of metabolic pathways when doing this sort of exercise. There is the phospho-creatine or phosphogen pathway which is the max effort energy system, that really only last for about ten seconds. Next is the glycolytic or lactate pathway this phase peaks at about one minute, and has a max of about 2 minutes. Last is the oxydative or aerobic pathway which has a much lower intensity level than the other two, and doesn't really have a drop off point IE marathon runners. So if you exercise in the glycolyctic pathway and work at high levels of intensity for aerobic lengths of time it allows for simultaneous development of all three pathways, much more than targeting one at a time. Cleans in the 4-21 rep range, fit exactly in here.

That's my point.
 
foobar said:
?! No, cleans are anaerobic because they are a brief high-intensity exercise in which the energy is generated in the muscle anaerobically, resulting in a buildup of lactic acid.
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Hahahaha, and where is this coming from? Do you need me to break down pathways for you again? Think about it, why is fatkid doing less volume than ever, yet doing lots of metcon and GC, while his maxes go up at the same time. Oxidation in the blood. I know what lactic acid is. I can get it from hiking for 15 miles, doesn't mean it was anaerobic. They may be brief, or it may be a 21 rep set, regardless, the set, and energy expendicture does not end as soon as you put the weight down. or do you just all of a sudden breath easier and not feel fatigued lol. That's not just lactic acid, that is pain threshold, VO2 max, and numerous other variables. If you know so much about this, post up some numbers man, the proof is in the pudding.
 
STWACOACH said:
Wasn't trying to sound smart. But if someone told you that you don't know anything about your job how would you take it? Frankly, I answered his question, which if he already KNEW the answer or didn't want to hear the right one, why ask? not my fault if I have to break it down for him.


It's a simple natural balance of metabolic pathways when doing this sort of exercise. There is the phospho-creatine or phosphogen pathway which is the max effort energy system, that really only last for about ten seconds. Next is the glycolytic or lactate pathway this phase peaks at about one minute, and has a max of about 2 minutes. Last is the oxydative or aerobic pathway which has a much lower intensity level than the other two, and doesn't really have a drop off point IE marathon runners. So if you exercise in the glycolyctic pathway and work at high levels of intensity for aerobic lengths of time it allows for simultaneous development of all three pathways, much more than targeting one at a time. Cleans in the 4-21 rep range, fit exactly in here.

That's my point.
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OK, now I understand, but you never made this point before. And where did I say you know nothing about your job?!?!
 
You didn't say it. But I make programs and nutrition programs as a living on the side. You know that. You tried telling me what it was. I knew I was correct, you insisted, you were, that's telling me I don't know my job.

But either way, doesn't matter to me lol, glad you got something out of it.
 
STWACOACH said:
Hahahaha, and where is this coming from? Do you need me to break down pathways for you again? Think about it, why is fatkid doing less volume than ever, yet doing lots of metcon and GC, while his maxes go up at the same time. Oxidation in the blood. I know what lactic acid is. I can get it from hiking for 15 miles, doesn't mean it was anaerobic. They may be brief, or it may be a 21 rep set, regardless, the set, and energy expendicture does not end as soon as you put the weight down. or do you just all of a sudden breath easier and not feel fatigued lol. That's not just lactic acid, that is pain threshold, VO2 max, and numerous other variables. If you know so much about this, post up some numbers man, the proof is in the pudding.
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Good info, you obviously know your stuff, but dont be so fucking touchy.
 
I don't think doing stairclimbing or running, or any other form of "cardio" will help you in these as much as doing high rep cleans. Its a whole different beast. Anaerobic endurance is the specific attribute you are taxing, and yes all three energy systems contribute to it so just training the oxidative system with regular cardio won't help as much as doing high intensity, double digit reps in exercises that use a lot of muscle.

This activity is not aerobic though STWACOACH. At least not the way I was taught aerobic is defined. Aerobic means "with oxygen" as you know. All the energy you need for aerobic activity can be supplied by the oxidative system. If the activity is so intense that the oxidative system cannot keep up, lactic acid threshold is reached and it is no longer aerobic. Pure aerobic activity should be able to continue until energy stores are depleted. When failure comes from lactic acid buildup, its not aerobic exercise. And with aerobic activity you are NOT sucking wind because the muscles are getting all the oxygen they need. Of course this is just an argument over definitions. I'm thinking of aerobic as applying to only "pure" aerobic exercise. Doesn't mean the same system isn't used somewhat in more intense exercise.
 
OK did you read how the pathways work? That is the fact straight out of college text for a kinetics and performance book. I didn't say it was solely aerobic did I? If so show me where, otherwise, like I said it's both.
 
too many scientists here! cleans make you tired because it makes you stronger! its all i got...
 
STWACOACH said:
OK did you read how the pathways work? That is the fact straight out of college text for a kinetics and performance book. I didn't say it was solely aerobic did I? If so show me where, otherwise, like I said it's both.
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Yes you are correct on how the pathways work, I wasn't arguing that. I went back and re-read your posts and I think I get what you were saying. The aerobic component is more prevalent AFTER the exercise and during rest between sets, right?
 
foobar said:
I do the following: a power clean-2 front squats-a push press, witth 60 kg, 10 sets of 4. After each set, I suck wind big time, and it is mainly because of the power clean (I verified). I wonder why this is the case. Is it because it is a fast, anaerobic lift where a lot of mechanical work is performed (moving 60 kg from floor to shoulder height) IN A SHORT TIME and the body is left with a large oxygen deficit?
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Yes, the second pull, or "power pull" is the most powerful movement one can do in the gym. It produces more than 3 times as much power as a comparable weigth deadlift. The extreme power demands of a good pull are demanding upon the body. It's for this reason that Weightlifting is the preferred method for developing explosive power.
 
GaaraKazekage said:
its a sign of bad cardio. incorporate more running/stair climbing into ure work outs. im pretty sure bally has one of those stair-climbing thingies, i hate them but i force myself to go 10 minutes on them
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It actually has nothing to do with cardio. It has to do with it has to do with max. anaerobic capacity.
Your should try to incorperate lactic acid threshold training in your non power training days.

If the ability to quickly replenish ATP and CP is not there, then the body will start sucking wind in order to have enough oxygen to attempt to maintain the intensity of the training.

You might try moving to a drop set by doing tthe sam cleans you have been doing and the immediately do about70-80 percent of that load, and then 70-80 percent of that load, and so on, until you are just using about ten to twenty pounds. Do this for six weeks and a clean will not gas you the same way again.

Good luck.
 
STWACOACH said:
Hahahaha. OK let me explain this to you, as seriously lately you have posted some insane shit. They are anaerobic in the sense that it takes muscle useage to make the weight move etc. It is aerobic in the sense that VO2 max is still maxed, and maintained for a period of time, during and after the set, which concludes into making it METCON, which is NOT complicated. Don't try and teach me something when you don't know what the hell you are talking about.
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Cleans are not aerobic in any sense, it doesn't last long enough to use that motor pathway.
 
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