Why do repeated cleans leave me sucking wind?

[STWACOACH**]

I have put up so many studies on it do a search. But hey I will play your game and get you some more. 400 meters is plenty of time to be aerobic, again, you should know that. Otherwise I could take any bodybuilder with strong muscles etc and they could run into the groun on 400 meters and become a champion, that isn't the way it works.

 

[STWACOACH**]

You just refuted your own argument dude. Aerobic doesnt begin to kick in until about the 75-100 second mark. So unless your doing power cleans for over a minute NON STOP it's not aerobic. The pathways blend yes, but aerobic does NOT kick in until atleast a minute, and usually not till almost the 2 minute mark.

Not really, it has been the same from the beginning has it not? As I said, we are not talking one rep cleans. Even at five reps, there are plenty of guys, with re grips and bringing down the weight from catch a five rep set could easily eclipse one minute, if not, then that isn't the issue. You are arguing semantics here. Like I said VO2 max does not recover imeediately as soon as the method is stopped, hello Tabata, study with ten second rest intervals and 20 second repeated exercise bouts. Hmmmm, odd?

 

[Bamaispriceless]

Ross in Infinite Intensity said that 400m is:

43% aerobic and 57% anaerobic.

He got this figure from Matt Spencer and Paul Gastin in their book Medicine and Science in Sports and Fitness (pp 157-162)

 

[STWACOACH**]

Hmmmm alrighty then. As I was trying to say, it's BOTH.

 

[PariahCarey]

That was the best exchange since Entropy vs AZJJ...

 

[STWACOACH**]

PED 291 - Chapter 5 Notes
The greatest stimulus to energy metabolism is physical activity. Sprinting intervals can burn 40-50 times the energy we burn in resting energy expenditure.

Energy for a 100 meter dash, or a 25 meter swim are supplied by ATP phosphocreatine stored within muscles. These are termed phosphagens.

How many phosphagens stored influence the ability to generate all out energy for brief (5-8 seconds) durations. REMEMBER: CREATINE KINASE, AN ENZYME WHICH TRIGGERS CREATINE TO RESYNTHSIZE ATP, REGULATES THE ROLE OF PHOSPHAGEN BREAKDOWN IN THE MUSCLES.

What kind of exercises are we talking about?

A lineman blocking a sled, pushing a car out of the snow bank while the driver pushes on the gas, swimming as fast as you can to the other end. During intense exercise, intramuscularly stored glycogen provides the energy source to make ADP.

Long duration sports have other energy sources. These are the breakdown of food: carbohydrates, fat, and protein macronutrients. This more aerobic process also recharges phosphates.

Lactate (lactic acid) is formed during anaerobic glycogenolysis: when glycogen stored in muscles provides the energy source to make ADP.

Short intense exercises (running 400 meters for 60 seconds) when active muscles cannot meet the additional energy demands for oxygen.

Without oxygen: pyruvate (figure 4.10, from chapter 4) converts to lactate so ATP can be continuously made to finish the high intensity exercise. (This is crucial during a 400 meter dash, hockey and soccer competitions). If to much lactate builds up, fatigue and pain set in.

Lactate can build at times of rest, but it

 

[Bamaispriceless]

We have a winner.

 

[magicman531]

That was the best exchange since Entropy vs AZJJ...

I know, jesus, lol... It was like a rapid fire battle :icon_lol:

 

[fried ectoplasm]

need to run more to avoid this.

 

[JPC]

After exercise is over the body does not return immeadiately to resting levels:

a. excess post exercise oxygen recovery: no matter what the activity or it's intensity (even bowling), an oxygen uptake in excess of the resting value always exist when exercise stops.

After running for 10 minutes: there are 2 kinds of oxygen recovery:

1. fast-excess post exercise oxygen consumption recovers at 50% 30 seconds after the workout. The remainder recovers in a couple of minutes.
2. slow-because of blood lactate and body temp increase from strenuous exercise, a 24 hour recovery is needed (a variable here is whether or not the workout was strenuous). See letter b.

b. Lactacid oxygen debt: a major portion of lactic acid buildup is reconverted to liver glycogen energy for the liver, heart, kidneys, and some skeletal muscle (the brain uses only glucose for energy).

Recovery from exercise can be active (slow jog), or passive (sitting). Be aware that active helps remove lactic acid.

People exercising at or below 60 percent of max oxygen uptake usually don't accumulate much lactic acid. How can some people work well above and still not build up lactic acid?

By exercising at an exhausting intensity for 3-5 minutes, or an all out exercise for about 8 seconds. Then they would let their body recover and do it again.

Examples: Interval training for 400 meter runners: practicing 6 400meter dashes at 80% of their maximum heart rate, with 5 minutes of recovery.

Example 2: run a mile in 6 minutes: rest for 8 minutes and repeat.

Example 3: if you can do 40 sit-ups in 2 minutes: do sets of 6 sit-ups in 10 seconds, rest 20 seconds, and repeat 10 times. (This is called the E to R method: exercise to rest).

So again, your point is AFTER the exercise is over the oxidative system is mainly used. That still doesn't mean the exercise in itself is aerobic, just the recovery. And aerobic exercise is not necessarily the same as cardio. You can trian the cardio system with anaerobic exercise. Aerobic exercise is very clearly defined. It has more to do with intensity than duration. Simply put if the intensity allows the activity to continue NONSTOP without lactic acid buildup causing failure, then its not intense enough to outrun the oxidative systems ability to produce ATP, and therefore it is aerobic exercise. If the intensity requires requires ATP at a faster rate, Glycolysis is used, but of course can't continue very long, and if ATP is required immediately, which is the start of any activity, the Phospo-creatine system is used. So if you do repitition cleans, to FAILURE, it is ANAEROBIC. At 2 minutes the oxidative system would start to kick in, but if you couldn't continue for much longer the intensity of the exercise is TOO high for the oxidative system to do much. If your VO2 is maxed, you are at anaerobic intensity. Think of it as an intensity threshold. Above it, anaerobic, below it, aerobic. Its really that simple.

 

[PhxJudoJujitsu]

Hmmmm alrighty then. As I was trying to say, it's BOTH.

A 400 meters, even if you do it in a world class time is about 45 seconds. Power cleans even doign a set of 10 is about 20 seconds, your wrong, and you need to be shot since you said someone shoudl shoot you, if a 100 meter isnt aerobic.

 

[PhxJudoJujitsu]

Your talikng about Post Exercise Oxygen Consumption. Once again, in the "evidence" you just posted it supports my argument.

"Without oxygen: pyruvate (figure 4.10, from chapter 4) converts to lactate so ATP can be continuously made to finish the high intensity exercise. (This is crucial during a 400 meter dash, hockey and soccer competitions). If to much lactate builds up, fatigue and pain set in"

"In maximum anaerobic effort, like a 200 meter dash, carbohydrate is the sole contributor to ATP production (due to glycolysis)."


"Energy for a 100 meter dash, or a 25 meter swim are supplied by ATP phosphocreatine stored within muscles. These are termed phosphagens."

Activities like a Power Clean, or 40 yard dash, or 100 meter sprint are purely anaerobic, a 400 meter might be slightly aerobic, an 800 meter is partially aerobic.

So please shoot yourself, even in your own evidence, you admit that a 100 meter dash is anaerobic

 

[Bamaispriceless]

Your talikng about Post Exercise Oxygen Consumption. Once again, in the "evidence" you just posted it supports my argument.

"Without oxygen: pyruvate (figure 4.10, from chapter 4) converts to lactate so ATP can be continuously made to finish the high intensity exercise. (This is crucial during a 400 meter dash, hockey and soccer competitions). If to much lactate builds up, fatigue and pain set in"

"In maximum anaerobic effort, like a 200 meter dash, carbohydrate is the sole contributor to ATP production (due to glycolysis)."


"Energy for a 100 meter dash, or a 25 meter swim are supplied by ATP phosphocreatine stored within muscles. These are termed phosphagens."

Activities like a Power Clean, or 40 yard dash, or 100 meter sprint are purely anaerobic, a 400 meter might be slightly aerobic, an 800 meter is partially aerobic.

So please shoot yourself, even in your own evidence, you admit that a 100 meter dash is anaerobic

I think we all realize a 100 meter dash, etc is primarily anaerobic, but if you do anaerobic work for an aerobic time limit (example: max rounds in 20 minutes, etc), then your aerobic system will get worked. Sure, 1 power clean is purely anaerobic, but 10 (or however many foobar does) done in a circuit with other exercises does involve aerobic work. I don't STWACOACH is arguing that 100m/40yrd dash/25m swim/etc is aerobic, he is arguing that if you do the anaerobic exercises for a aerobic amount of time (either in rest periods between sets, intervals, whatever).

Another example: 10 rounds for time of 100m run, 25m swim, 5 powercleans. That will take over 120 seconds agreed?

 

[PhxJudoJujitsu]

I think we all realize a 100 meter dash, etc is primarily anaerobic, but if you do anaerobic work for an aerobic time limit (example: max rounds in 20 minutes, etc), then your aerobic system will get worked. Sure, 1 power clean is purely anaerobic, but 10 (or however many foobar does) done in a circuit with other exercises does involve aerobic work. I don't STWACOACH is arguing that 100m/40yrd dash/25m swim/etc is aerobic, he is arguing that if you do the anaerobic exercises for a aerobic amount of time (either in rest periods between sets, intervals, whatever).

Another example: 10 rounds for time of 100m run, 25m swim, 5 powercleans. That will take over 120 seconds agreed?

if your working non stop for 120 seconds than your doing aerobic work. However if you do say a set of 10 power cleans, take a 20,30 second break, then start over again, it's purely anaerobic. He did argue that 100 meters is aerobic. I can find the post if you like. From what I understood from Foobars posting, he was just doing a set of power cleans.

 

[Bamaispriceless]

if your working non stop for 120 seconds than your doing aerobic work. However if you do say a set of 10 power cleans, take a 20,30 second break, then start over again, it's purely anaerobic. He did argue that 100 meters is aerobic. I can find the post if you like. From what I understood from Foobars posting, he was just doing a set of power cleans.

OK, I am no expert, so here is my scenario. Say you do 119 second anaerobic work and your HR goes up to 195bpm or whatever. Then you rest 30 seconds. Now, your heart rate is after the rest is 170bpm...it has been 149 seconds. You understand what I'm trying to say? Sorry, this may be confusing, but...

 

[Monger]

www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/vce/studies/physicaledu/EnrgSys.pdf#search='energy%20systems%20e%20xercise

The link above actually verifies Ross's statement regarding a 400m sprint being 43% aerobic. In fact, it's exactly the same which makes me think he may have gotten his information from this very source.

According to the source even doing a 200m sprint is 29% aerobic. Both systems start simultaneously from every thing that I've read and as training time increases the aerobic system becomes more and more dominant. It also states that around 75 secs. the anaerobic and aerobic systems are supplying equal amounts of energy.

One thing is for sure. The different energy systems are not as black and white as some of you make them out to be. The body does not shut one down immediately and start another up at any given time.

 

[PhxJudoJujitsu]

www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/vce/studies/physicaledu/EnrgSys.pdf#search='energy%20systems%20e%20xercise

The link above actually verifies Ross's statement regarding a 400m sprint being 43% aerobic. In fact, it's exactly the same which makes me think he may have gotten his information from this very source.

According to the source even doing a 200m sprint is 29% aerobic. Both systems start simultaneously from every thing that I've read and as training time increases the aerobic system becomes more and more dominant. It also states that around 75 secs. the anaerobic and aerobic systems are supplying equal amounts of energy.

One thing is for sure. The different energy systems are not as black and white as you make them out to be. The body does not shut one down immediately and start another up at any given time.

They are not black and white, there is cross over between the energy systems, there has to be, otherwise you would have "lag" periods before the next energy systemt kicked in. a 200 meter sprint is not 23& aerobic, no way, no how. I'll find some good info to refute that.

 

[PhxJudoJujitsu]

OK, I am no expert, so here is my scenario. Say you do 119 second anaerobic work and your HR goes up to 195bpm or whatever. Then you rest 30 seconds. Now, your heart rate is after the rest is 170bpm...it has been 149 seconds. You understand what I'm trying to say? Sorry, this may be confusing, but...

You've moved into the aerobic zone. Your partly anearobic, and aerobic at that time, and during the recovery period your in the aerobic zone. Your body will use oxygen to oxidize the lactic acid, and convert it back to pyruvate, and resythesize ATP. 120 seconds is not an absolute for aerobic threshold. Aerobic/anaerobic threshold is highly variable between persons, and variable by training. For example, a person who does alot of sprint interval training ( repeated 200 meter intervals) can increase their anearobic threshold, which means they can do more work for a longer period of time in the anaerobic mode before having to move into the aerobic mode. A marathon runner conversly can move into the aerobic mode more rapidly than others can. The aerobic mode typically kicks in somewhere between 60, and 120 seconds. How quickly is dependent upon your training level, and genetics. For an activity like sprinting, or Power cleans, your body wants to stay anaerobic as long as possible. Your body can deliver ATP to the muscles more rapidly in the lactic acid system. Think of the difference between a drag car, and economic sedan. Anaerobc would be the sprin car, it can provide fuel rapdily, but not for long, so if you need to go really fast, for a short period of time, you want anaerobic. Aerobic would be a small Honda, it wont get up to 60 mph very fast, but you can go 500 miles on a tank of gas. Does that answer your question?

 

[erco]

While the information here is definitely top notch, and the posts are civil and intelligent, there is a certain level of semantics and nit-picking going on.

Break it down for me: power cleans...will my cardio be better if I do them for say...15 reps?

 

[Bamaispriceless]

Break it down for me: power cleans...will my cardio be better if I do them for say...15 reps?

Honestly, probably not. No matter what the definitions, etc are...in the real world, to improve your conditioning, it is probably going to take longer than 120 seconds. HIIT, guerilla cardio, sprints, hill sprints, complexes, circuits, interval training, MMA, burpees, etc will improve your conditioning, but 15 powercleans will most likely not do a whole lot for your overall conditioning.

In all seriousness, this whole argument is pretty useless. I know what it takes to improve my conditioning, and I know VERY little about the various energy systems. I know the basics: Anaerobic = without oxygen (high intensity, shorter period), and aerobic = with oxygen (lesser intensity, longer period). That might be wrong by todays definition, but it still works. I know combat sports are primarily anaerobic (with some aerobics involved), and I know that to prepare for a tournament/fight, you should be working at a very high intensity. You could do LSD, but it won't help as much. Example: My friend takes wrestling in HS, and they run 3 miles before and 3 miles after each practice. That's brutal, but I can outlast him when we roll/wrestle (I take BJJ and my only wrestling experience is takedowns, he is solely a wrestler)...I can dominate him because he gasses due to the high intensity, anaerobic nature of rolling/wrestling, because he is used to long, slow distance running. Screw all of this advanced definitions bs, I'll rely on the things found in the conditioning forum to improve my conditioning.