Where do you place nick diaz overall

[contrail]

Any such list is entirely subjective because each person's criteria is subjective; for me the measure of a fighter isn't their resume on paper (the how many big names beaten + how long of a winning streak/how many title defenses + how many belts formula), but how they deal with adversity in the chaos of a fight, and if they compete clean and fair with no chemical weapons, especially in the era before dodging USADA became a sport unto itself and guys could get away with more. I think even among his detractors the notion that Nick fought clean throughout his career is generally agreed upon, and the kid had a hell of a lot of heart (this refusal to quit may have also been part and parcel of his bullheadedness/refusal to "play ball" on the business side and thus missed opportunities, but I digress...). So, that's my criteria, and going by that criteria Nick rates among the best the sport has seen. This criteria of course eliminates a few obvious fighters whose resumes, when going by the hard numbers, are objectively impressive, but it's how I perceive the sport.

 

[TheLexusMan]

The Diaz brothers are the two most over rated fighters in the world. They just got popular because they smoke pot and are ass holes to the press. They have never been in the upper echelon of any division.

 

[Poatan Power]

He might edge top 10 WW but definitely not even close to top 30 fighter of all time.

EDIT
Usman
GSP
Hughes
Hendricks
Woodley
Condit
Lawler
Shields
Militech
Wonderboy
Fitch
Nick


Thats 12 but hard to say who doesnt get the nod in top 10

Do PED's mean nothing to you?

The Diaz brothers are the two most over rated fighters in the world. They just got popular because they smoke pot and are ass holes to the press. They have never been in the upper echelon of any division.

thanks, casual

 

[wh4tttt]

right now id say alcoholics anonymous ..

he's one of the 2nd wave OG's..put on a lotta entertaining fights..

 

[ferrisjso]

The more i think about nicks record the more confused i get when it comes to his place amongst great fighters of the sport.

He has a tremendous amount of finishes against average to slightly above average fighters. Daley, whitemare, frank.shamrock and robbie are all good wins. He doesnt have huge names in the win column other than an already broken down bjand a young robbie but i think he gets tons of style points bcause of his unique striking.and his suprisingly cerebral ground game.

Is nick a top 10 ww all time? Is he a top 20 or 30 mma fighter all time? Are we giving him too much praise or is it not enough. Im honestly confused with where i place him all time.

Not close to either of those things.

Besides his KO over Robbie Nick lost to all the best WW's of the early 2000s that he fought. Lot of those guys would be more accurately described as LW's. He got finished when fighting for the Elite XC LW title. He beat that guy several years later when fighting for the WW title but by close decision.

He was Strikeforce WW champ then was a top 5 WW in the UFC at the tail end of GSP's run. But in both cases if we use hindsight he was in the promotion with the lesser WW division, the Strikeforce WW's after Nick left would go on to dominate the UFC in the mid 2010s. Hendricks, Condit these guys did not fare well against the new up and comers from Strikeforce, Shields, Woodley, Lawler etc. In his second UFC run his ONLY win was handing BJ Penn the first loss of his career ending losing streak. That(due to his status as Strikeforce champ) was enough to get him an interim title shot. He did well against Condit had no chance against GSP nor did he deserve that title shot.

Here's his UFC record
First run:6-4
Second run 1-2

Most impressive fight in Strikeforce was KO'ing Daley.

Without his name his record does not stand out. Stands out less than his brothers. Yeah KO'ing Robbie was impressive and a nice KO, but that would be long forgotten if it was someone else. His last 2 fights were against AS and GSP, look at his record before and it's pretty clear no one else with that record would get what in a pre Conor world were clearly "money fights". His GSP fight did 900k and his AS fight did 650k unicorn numbers today. That's why he got those fights not on the merits.

There's way more than 30 MMA fighters with a better resume than him.

 

[Rampage_Jackson]

I don't think he has the ability of a top 20 WW all time. Plenty of guys I would take to beat him. Does he have a top 20 resume? Eh. maybe. speaks more to the depth of the class than anything else. Without being a marketable guy he would have not been a memorable fighter imo

 

[Rationality]

Objectively speaking he's an overrated bum who had a lot of promise but was inconsistent during his career. Sometimes looked unbeatable, other times barely average. If he didn't have the bad boy persona he'd be considered a Michael Johnson-class journeyman.

 

[pankrat]

hmmm.. that´s the thing, mate... Miletich´s skill set was arguably more suited to the UFC´s Fight Configuration & Scorin´ System... doesnt mean he was better, tho. (jus´like the qualitative difference in terms of skill set between your holy Okami & Tamura, for instance...)

Im talking assessing their skills, regardless how such were rewarded by a particular promotion. Thats refflected on W/L but I dont asses fighters based on the W/L column. Much less talking about Nick Diaz.

Here I guess you are drawin a comparison between Nick Diaz and Tamura, whose striking relied largely on explosiveness, with the left kick and right hook as main striking weapons and usually by outbursts - if anything more resemblant of Luke Rockhold in that regard.
Diaz's feints, head movement, punching combinations, volume and all-around boxing skill is in a whole other level than Tamura's.
Not to mention we have barely seen Nick Diaz convincingly being beaten - by beaten I mean literally, regardless of scoring - and never submitted, unlike Tamura.

At this point I already know your assesment on Okami, whether if its because of clueless or rather pure bias, it's very much on the surface, at best based on fights in his rookie or second year as a pro, and largely based in falacies (was huge for a MW, his standup sucks, didnt advanced position in the ground...)

Here you are comparing a guy who had a hard time passing guard if he even tried in Miletich, who was also submitted twice in his prime by guys his size in Nakao and Newton...with Okami who holds the record for most guard passes in UFC MW division history, was never submitted or even close to it in 50 pro fights at WW/MW, won the ADCC Japanese qualifiers twice, and even took Demian Maia to a decision in ADCC almost taking his back. Not to mention their GnP style were completely different with a whole lot more of posturing up and hand traps in Yushin's case.

I guess you can compare them in the sense Diaz/Tamura had a more dynamic style instead of a more tight/conservative in Miletich/Okami. I get it but again, very much in the surface, not to mention Tamura turned to be extremely conservative in his style when fighting under rules that allowed GnP, as expected.

 

[pankrat]

The Diaz brothers are the two most over rated fighters in the world. They just got popular because they smoke pot and are ass holes to the press. They have never been in the upper echelon of any division.

They both fought for the tittle in UFC you turd, and some others did as well off beating them, usually by outpointing them to decission. Not to mention Nick is a WEC and Strikeforce champion.

 

[Cylence]

Without thinking too much into it I'd probably place him just inside the top fifteen welterweights of all time.

But, I am a fan of his, so if I gave it some unbiased thought, it would probably realistically be just inside the top twenty.

Somewhere in that range seems fair.

 

[gono btw]

Im talking assessing their skills, regardless how such were rewarded by a particular promotion. Thats refflected on W/L but I dont asses fighters based on the W/L column. Much less talking about Nick Diaz.

Here I guess you are drawin a comparison between Nick Diaz and Tamura, whose striking relied largely on explosiveness, with the left kick and right hook as main striking weapons and usually by outbursts - if anything more resemblant of Luke Rockhold in that regard.
Diaz's feints, head movement, punching combinations, volume and all-around boxing skill is in a whole other level than Tamura's.
Not to mention we have barely seen Nick Diaz convincingly being beaten - by beaten I mean literally, regardless of scoring - and never submitted, unlike Tamura.

At this point I already know your assesment on Okami, whether if its because of clueless or rather pure bias, it's very much on the surface, at best based on fights in his rookie or second year as a pro, and largely based in falacies (was huge for a MW, his standup sucks, didnt advanced position in the ground...)

Here you are comparing a guy who had a hard time passing guard if he even tried in Miletich, who was also submitted twice in his prime by guys his size in Nakao and Newton...with Okami who holds the record for most guard passes in UFC MW division history, was never submitted or even close to it in 50 pro fights at WW/MW, won the ADCC Japanese qualifiers twice, and even took Demian Maia to a decision in ADCC almost taking his back. Not to mention their GnP style were completely different with a whole lot more of posturing up and hand traps in Yushin's case.

I guess you can compare them in the sense Diaz/Tamura had a more dynamic style instead of a more tight/conservative in Miletich/Okami. I get it but again, very much in the surface, not to mention Tamura turned to be extremely conservative in his style when fighting under rules that allowed GnP, as expected.

> That 'conservative' Tamura is pretty much irrelevant, by the time he reached Pride he was already declinin´& gettin´out of his physical prime.

> About Pat tryin´to pass guard:

Spoiler

> The parallel I drew with Tamura is based on the fact that both Tamura´s & Nick´s game [problematic TDD / submission game] are not best suited to the UFC´s Fight Configuration & Scorin´System where Ground Control is heavily rewarded, and submission attempts, not really.
That doesnt make them better or lesser fighters, that´s your confusion.

> In time, Okami was arguably saved by the bell against [undersized] Ryuta Sakurai.

 

[WHITE ANDERSON]

diaz bros are undefeated REAL FIGHT SHIT ONLY

but he's super overrated and throws big tantrums rather than evolve as a fighter
he doesn't even break top 20 best WW of all time

 

[aunshi189]

That's weird, people in this thread are saying Nick beat Gomi but I'm pretty sure there's no record of that happening

 

[pankrat]

> That 'conservative' Tamura is pretty much irrelevant, by the time he reached Pride he was already declinin´& gettin´out of his physical prime.

Convince yourself it had nothing to do with GnP being alllowed.

> About Pat tryin´to pass guard:

Spoiler

View attachment 765630

.

Against who? How many black belts?
If you dont want/know to assess Okami is an excellent guard passer you are exposing yourself, period.

> The parallel I drew with Tamura is based on the fact that both Tamura´s & Nick´s game [problematic TDD / submission game] are not best suited to the UFC´s Fight Configuration & Scorin´System where Ground Control is heavily rewarded, and submission attempts, not really.
That doesnt make them better or lesser fighters, that´s your confusion.
.

Oh, so havin Greco-Roman skills, for example, doesnt make you a beter or lesser fighter...good to know thats you criteria

> In time, Okami was arguably saved by the bell against [undersized] Ryuta Sakurai.

In time? What does that mean? I will tell you at what time: in his second year as a pro at 22 years old. Ryuta was legit by the way, had weight advantage in that fight, and got his face badly beaten anyways. Not a scoring issue.

Anyways, you resorting to fights in his second year as a pro - over and over again - to assess the skills of a fighter with such a long track record, just expose how biased and clueless you are about the matter. Its poor and weak, so step up your game or dont even care.
Check how he ouboxed Nate Marquard for example, who outstriked Misaki and dropped him twice...or how he mauled Dean Lister from inside his guard....just a couple examples, but move on from 2004 mate

 

[Masturbin]

Legend and pioneer without a doubt , hall of fame career ufc title or not
Anyone who goes the distance with gsp and anderson Silva deserve there spot on some kind of list

Going the distance with gsp isn't impresive that's how most gsp fights end

 

[gono btw]

Convince yourself it had nothing to do with GnP being alllowed.



Against who? How many black belts?
If you dont want/know to assess Okami is an excellent guard passer you are exposing yourself, period.



Oh, so havin Greco-Roman skills, for example, doesnt make you a beter or lesser fighter...good to know thats you criteria



In time? What does that mean? I will tell you at what time: in his second year as a pro at 22 years old. Ryuta was legit by the way, had weight advantage in that fight, and got his face badly beaten anyways. Not a scoring issue.

Anyways, you resorting to fights in his second year as a pro - over and over again - to assess the skills of a fighter with such a long track record, just expose how biased and clueless you are about the matter. Its poor and weak, so step up your game or dont even care.
Check how he ouboxed Nate Marquard for example, who outstriked Misaki and dropped him twice...or how he mauled Dean Lister from inside his guard....just a couple examples, but move on from 2004 mate

meh, you´re too emotional about this shit, mate.
1st of all, close your eyes, take a deep breath, & helax. Nobody´s exposin´you & nobody´s gonna be exposed by you here, we know you´re bored, quarentine shit, jus´ stay quiet.

Anyway:

> You said: "was never submitted or even close to it in 50 pro fights at WW/MW". Then, you complain about the Ryuta fight? Why did you write "in 50 pro fights", then?



> Then you said: "passing guard if he even tried in Miletich". I drop a gif with a technical sequence showin´him doin´it, but you want to stop the action & download Black Belts left & right in the 1990s?



> Tamura: by the time he reached Pride, he already 34 fights @ OW + Pro-Wrasslin´career [works/half shoots]. This is part of the equation, whether you like it or not.
Meanwhile, adaptin´then to a new Fight Configuration on his final run was definitely not an easy task [see UFC Champs in Rings > Tamura vs Miletich, Hughes vs Kanehara]

> Greco-Roman skills etc.. : a skill set is always related to a Fight Configuration & Scorin´System that shapes its evolution.

 

[lukeuidswords]

Diaz' significance isnt in his accomplishments in the sport - but his innovative style and striking skills, and ability to create a personality cult whilst being shunned by his promoter

 

[cheesus]

Nick was a career-gatekeeper who's attitude and demeanor made him resonate with a lot of mma fans, to point where he has consistently been overrated. The guy was a good, well-rounded fighter, but far from elite. Let alone on an all-time scale.

His all-time resume is about one notch above Lytle's, and one notch below Kos' IMO.

How do you justify that ? Kos may have been the better fighter but his prime was rather short lived and he had rather humiliating losses. Diaz was competitive right toward the end and had much more fights than Kos, he also fought in two division and was a Stikeforce champion. Win wise, I think they're fairly equal in terms of big names but Diaz stlil has more notable wins.

 

[CRuck1980]

The more i think about nicks record the more confused i get when it comes to his place amongst great fighters of the sport.

He has a tremendous amount of finishes against average to slightly above average fighters. Daley, whitemare, frank.shamrock and robbie are all good wins. He doesnt have huge names in the win column other than an already broken down bjand a young robbie but i think he gets tons of style points bcause of his unique striking.and his suprisingly cerebral ground game.

Is nick a top 10 ww all time? Is he a top 20 or 30 mma fighter all time? Are we giving him too much praise or is it not enough. Im honestly confused with where i place him all time.

I'd say probably in the late teens. He's more of an attraction for his personality than a great

 

[pankrat]

meh, you´re too emotional about this shit, mate.
1st of all, close your eyes, take a deep breath, & helax. Nobody´s exposin´you & nobody´s gonna be exposed by you here, we know you´re bored, quarentine shit, jus´ stay quiet.

Anyway:

> You said: "was never submitted or even close to it in 50 pro fights at WW/MW". Then, you complain about the Ryuta fight? Why did you write "in 50 pro fights", then?

View attachment 765631

> Then you said: "passing guard if he even tried in Miletich". I drop a gif with a technical sequence showin´him doin´it, but you want to stop the action & download Black Belts left & right in the 1990s?

View attachment 765631

> Tamura: by the time he reached Pride, he already 34 fights @ OW + Pro-Wrasslin´career [works/half shoots]. This is part of the equation, whether you like it or not.
Meanwhile, adaptin´then to a new Fight Configuration on his final run was definitely not an easy task [see UFC Champs in Rings > Tamura vs Miletich, Hughes vs Kanehara]

> Greco-Roman skills etc.. : a skill set is always related to a Fight Configuration & Scorin´System that shapes its evolution.

Im totally relaxed, friend. Only you assume emotional, which speaks about you rather than me

I just enjoy exposing how much superficial and weak are your arguments here.

> Try to asses who are the black belts Pat had succes being in the ground with...and assesing the quality difference between them and Dean Lister....or you dont, on fear of being even more exposed

Anyways here you have yet another blatant example of you getting "facts straight":

Okami was arguably saved by the bell against [undersized] Ryuta Sakurai.

Undersized you say...
Yet whats the truth? Sakurai weighted in at 185, Okami did at 181.
But you see a guy being longer - an much lankier - and you conclude the opponent is undersized, despite facts say otherwise.

As I say, extremely superficial approach