Where do the "duck" arguments come from?

[Xoleth]

UFC wanted Bisping to keep the belt. They saw him as a bigger money maker than Romero. They probably never put that fight on the table,knowing they could make more lucrative moves in the long term.
What was bisping supposed to do? Say NO I CANT GET REVENGE ON DAN HENDERSON AND ALL THOSE PEOPLE WHO LAUGHED AT ME WHEN I GET KOED. I GOTTA FIGHT ROMERO INSTEAD.
NO JEEZUS PUT THAT GSP FIGHT AWAY,HES ONLY A LEGEND. I DONT WANT TO CASH OUT AT ALL. SOME GUY ON SHERDOG NAMED HENDOKOBISPING69 WOULD BE VERY MAD AT ME IF I ACCEPTED THIS LATE CAREER PAYDAY.

Maybe it was a bad example, indeed.
I can't possibly know FOR SURE if a fighter is ducking or not, but clearly ducking exists.

Reasons for not fighting that can be mistaken with ducking:

- the opponent is much lower ranked and you get no benefit for fighting
- not enough money
- an injury
- you are waiting for a fight with a better ranked opponent
- you prefer an opponent who has more fans and brings more money
- you have a problem with the location
- you have a problem with the date of the fight
- personal reasons (death in family, child on the way, just not in the mood to fight, bad recovery)

 

[RoJo303]

Oh, you actually believe Ali, the dude that told Noah's mom that he was dying so she could get out of paying child support?



Kevin Lee may have got a contract, but they probably sent it to Korean Chef Kevin Lee to avoid the hands of the Phenom.

 

[djacobox372]

"Ducking" only applies when a fighter takes less money to fight an easier opponent.

Too often fighters are accused of "ducking" when they are just being business minded.

 

[HHJ]

Maybe it was a bad example, indeed.
I can't possibly know FOR SURE if a fighter is ducking or not, but clearly ducking exists.

Reasons for not fighting that can be mistaken with ducking:

- the opponent is much lower ranked and you get no benefit for fighting
- not enough money
- an injury
- you are waiting for a fight with a better ranked opponent
- you prefer an opponent who has more fans and brings more money
- you have a problem with the location
- you have a problem with the date of the fight
- personal reasons (death in family, child on the way, just not in the mood to fight, bad recovery)

I dont throw that term around,really. If you are a champion and refuse to fight the #1 contender that the UFC demands you to fight,they will just strip you of the belt.
Conor refused to defend his belt against anyone and even that was more of him being too rich to care about defending it,and doing the mayweather thing that ducking.

99.9 % of the time people tossing that term out there is to troll that fighter's fans,and generally has no basis in reality. Even when Tito was accused of ducking Chuck,what he was really trying to do is hold out for more money. He probably saw him losing that fight,so he wanted to make the UFC give him more,since it was probably the biggest fight they could put on at the time,and he was dissapointed that Chuck wasnt interested in doing the same.

Fighters trying to pick the best fights for the best path to the title and the most money are just being smart.It is not the fighters job to find the hardest fights possible for them to take.

 

[RetiredSlave]

Till admitted he tried finding excuses to get out of fighting Gastelum the night of the fight. 'Member? Boom roasted. Its probably said in this thread already.

 

[ferrisjso]

Read about it A LOT on Sherdog, how can someone in their right mind argue fighters would avoid do their fucking job out of... fear? Of fighting? Never really understood if this is trolling or just a Sherdog trope or whatever.

Has there ever been a proof of this? Like someone admitting it later or something.

Not fear of getting hurt or anything but the consequences of losing. A loss means you either lose your belt or you're put of the title picture. All those things translate to huge financial and professional consequences and are what you'd expect fighters to fear not actually getting the shit kicked out of them. In all walks of life people usually do a cost benefit analysis of their decisions. If the risk of fighting someone is far greater than the reward for winning it makes sense to "duck".

Most famous case of this would be Tito at this point there's been documentaries and books about it. Long tenured champ dragged his feet fighting a guy on the most impressive UFC win streak ever at the time to fight the hopelessly outmatched Ken. And that's how the "interim belt" was born.

Today ducking is way more understandable because now long win streaks are way more common while in the 2000s early 2010s, losing was more understood and was a part of just about everyone's career. Now long win streaks are the rule if you want a belt rather than the exception. So the consequences of a loss are much higher.

For example fighters with no chance of beating the champ don't duck title fights even though on paper these should be the fights someone should be the most afraid of, if "being scared" was really what it was about. These are professional fighters they aren't afraid of getting their ass kicked, that happens sometimes even when they win.

There's also no real reason for someone to admit they are ducking a fight. Why would someone do that? So what we usually have are people's reasons for saying no and trying to interpret if they are genuine or not.

 

[Ackmed]

Oh, you actually believe Ali, the dude that told Noah's mom that he was dying so she could get out of paying child support?



Kevin Lee may have got a contract, but they probably sent it to Korean Chef Kevin Lee to avoid the hands of the Phenom.

There was nothing in my post about Ali? But since ur wondering, no I dont believe everything Ali says...but I have no doubt that Islam wants to fight Fighter Kevin Lee. He's been calling him out for 2 years now. At first FKL ignored him and kept thinking he should catapult to a TS with Khabib.

Now Fighter Kevin Lee finally knows the best way to be noticed by Khabib is not to duck Islam.

 

[Xoleth]

I dont throw that term around,really. If you are a champion and refuse to fight the #1 contender that the UFC demands you to fight,they will just strip you of the belt.
Conor refused to defend his belt against anyone and even that was more of him being too rich to care about defending it,and doing the mayweather thing that ducking.

99.9 % of the time people tossing that term out there is to troll that fighter's fans,and generally has no basis in reality. Even when Tito was accused of ducking Chuck,what he was really trying to do is hold out for more money. He probably saw him losing that fight,so he wanted to make the UFC give him more,since it was probably the biggest fight they could put on at the time,and he was dissapointed that Chuck wasnt interested in doing the same.

Fighters trying to pick the best fights for the best path to the title and the most money are just being smart.It is not the fighters job to find the hardest fights possible for them to take.

I agree.
People are that stupid/trolls to say that GSP, a WW, ducked Silva, a MW who also fought at LHW, much bigger than him. Or that Whittaker ducked Romero for a 3rd fight.

There are some fighters who can get fights, though. Ryan Hall, for example. UFC can't find him a fighter. Because you can also get submitted by Hall, no matter how good you are, and because Hall isn't quite popular or well ranked to fight him.

A case of ducking might be Michael Page. The man fought cans brought to him on the table by Bellator. He entered that WW tournament, he lost, and fights cans again. I am not saying he ducks good fighters, but he is in Bellator for a while and he could fight guys like Koreshkov, Ed Ruth, Larkin, Amosov, Fitch.

 

[youllneverwalkalone]

Dude I know what ducking means.

And if you read the forums you'll see people arguing fighters are scared of this or that other fighter all the time. I simply think this is a bullshit argument. I'm very open to be proven wrong though, I'm a casual and a recent fan and I'm sure you know much more than I do (no sarcasm).

Certainly people will negotiate for favourable matchups. But favourable ranking and money wise more than everything.

Well, then it comes down to semantics, in particular on what you mean by "scared" and "ducking".

I don't believe pro fighters aren't scared in layman's terms (although it can happen, see recently Darren Till's confession prior to his KG fight). They are probably very aware of the harsh consequences of losing (financial, psychological, etc.), so clearly they'd be looking to avoid opponents perceived as very dangerous for as long as they can. Moreover, you need to keep in mind that fighters have a team around them, so what managers/coaches/family think about an opponent may be as important of the fighters themselves think.

Regarding ducking - I agree with your last sentence but there are many examples of the opposite, i.e. of fighters choosing opponents that do not make sense rankingwise, financially, or even both. For instance, Bisping in his first title defense fought #12 Dan Henderson rather than any of the top ranked MWs at the time (Rockhold, Romero, Jacare & co). GDR avoided at all costs to fight Cyborg, giving up the title and certainly a lot of money in the process.

 

[winkydinks]

Islam Makhachev - Most Ducked Fighter in History;
6 Fight Win Streak;
International Sambo Master;
Future Lightweight Champion;
Movie Star Good Looks;
Mensa IQ;
Best Nutritionist in the Game

6 Fight Win Streak against cans
Who gives a shit
You're an idiot
Who gives a shit
Who gives a shit
You seriously need to chill on the gargling. I can't believe what I just read.
Islam ducked FKL. Ali the rat covered his tracks.

 

[Ackmed]

6 Fight Win Streak against cans
Who gives a shit
You're an idiot
Who gives a shit
Who gives a shit
You seriously need to chill on the gargling. I can't believe what I just read.
Islam ducked FKL. Ali the rat covered his tracks.

FKL took the easier fight

 

[dipstickjimmy]

Whittaker would have beaten GSP to a pulp.

What evidence is there to make you think that? Whittaker lost to Court McGee and Wonderboy at WW and then when moving to MW beat Clint Hester, Brad Tavares, Uriah Hall, Rafael Natal and Derek Brunson. GSP beats all of them easily.

He beat Jacare and Yoel 2 x. Those are his best wins at MW but it isn't something GSP couldn't do. I think it would be a good fight and competitive but to think Whittaker somehow has the ability to kill the GOAT is an opinion that is baseless. GSP and Bobby have the same number of successful MW title defenses.

 

[CasualBot]

Quacks








/endthread


(I'll see myself out)

 

[TankAbbott4Eva]

Risk and reward is the fight game, refusing a fight doesn’t mean you’re ducking or scared, it might mean the risk of losing isn’t balanced by what you’re getting paid.

 

[TITS]

What evidence is there to make you think that? Whittaker lost to Court McGee and Wonderboy at WW and then when moving to MW beat Clint Hester, Brad Tavares, Uriah Hall, Rafael Natal and Derek Brunson. GSP beats all of them easily.

He beat Jacare and Yoel 2 x. Those are his best wins at MW but it isn't something GSP couldn't do. I think it would be a good fight and competitive but to think Whittaker somehow has the ability to kill the GOAT is an opinion that is baseless. GSP and Bobby have the same number of successful MW title defenses.

And now we'll never know.

 

[ejazahmednit]

Ducking because of losing certain positional advantages in his division etc, but for the fear of fighting someone is absurd imo
generally comes out of ass shaped puckered lips

 

[winkydinks]

FKL took the easier fight

Sorry to inform you that just because Islam said something, doesn't mean it's the word of God.

 

[fzoid4454]

Read about it A LOT on Sherdog, how can someone in their right mind argue fighters would avoid do their fucking job out of... fear? Of fighting? Never really understood if this is trolling or just a Sherdog trope or whatever.

Has there ever been a proof of this? Like someone admitting it later or something.

If someone doesn't instantly fight another fighter who they have no reason to fight, with no preparation, for free, then the other fighters fans scream "duck!" It's brainless nonsense, pretty much in the same vein as "shook" and "alpha" claims.

There are some instances. Vitor definitely did everything he could to avoid Mousasi for many years.

Lennox Lewis was the most ducked HW boxer earlier in his career. Both Riddick Bowe and Mike Tyson gave up championship belts when Lewis was the mandatory challenger rather than face him in the ring. That's a pretty legit case for ducking.

But for the most part, here, it's just the usual idiocy.

 

[BRASIL WAND]

Are you implying there ISN’T any ducking in the UFC???


Don’t be that guy. Yair and Hooker are clear examples of ducks.

Yair opted to get cut rather than fight Zabit. Held out for a more favorable fight.

Hooker coming off a beheading by Barboza fought a higher ranked Iaquinta then used the excuse of rankings to blatantly duck Makhachev. Also held out for an easier fight against Felder.

Mystic @BRASIL WAND

 

[TRYHARD 2001]

How would training make you more or less able to understand when a fighter "Ducks" another fighter.

It doesn't but it gives you a muuuuuccchhh deeper understanding of the sport and what's at play. It also might give you behind-the-scenes access to a certain fighter actively ducking another.


Tyron Woodley ducking Lombard for like 2 years always comes to mind when we talk about "ducks" in MMA.