What skillset is needed to beat the top-level Dagestanis in their prime?

SovereignPhantom said:
I'm thinking someone will need power in their hands and amazing offensive AND defensive grappling to stand a chance at winning more than just the rare lucky punch. But it just doesn't seem like this combo exists yet.
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That's Topuria is who that is. You just described Topuria.
 
kingmob6 said:
was referring to "palhares" level bjj guy at LW, not at MW, since that was a hypothetical fighter combo.
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OK, I see. There's been a lot of talk about Islam fighting at WW (same with Khabib when he was active) so it's a potential "time machine" fight if that ever happened, since Palhares had many fights at 170.
 
Pancake Sprawl said:
stop signing bums. this is one of UFC's weakest eras in terms of having a deep pool of talent. the Dagestanis are good, but they're not being tested by the world's best. i mean the ACTUAL best, i don't mean whatever guys UFC signs. they get preferential treatment, and they rarely stay active. make them fight a busy schedule and don't allow them to pick who they fight and i guarantee you they will take Ls. the problem is every time they get a match they don't like all of a sudden they get an injury or it's Ramadan, or his wife's table cloth fell off during weigh-ins and it's Haram. they just have a very opportunistic style of waiting for the right time. Floyd Mayweather-esque if you will.
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And there doesn't seem to be any interest in developing U.S. wrestlers into MMA fighters any more. Look at AKA: Cain, Fitch, Koscheck, Cormier, etc. What gym is bringing in guys from D1 (or Olympics in Cormier's case) and actually helping them cross-train? All the guys I mentioned were more well-rounded and less awkward than Bo, and some of them started MMA careers 20+ years ago. Xtreme Couture was good at developing wrestlers as well.
 
mkt said:
And there doesn't seem to be any interest in developing U.S. wrestlers into MMA fighters any more. Look at AKA: Cain, Fitch, Koscheck, Cormier, etc. What gym is bringing in guys from D1 (or Olympics in Cormier's case) and actually helping them cross-train? All the guys I mentioned were more well-rounded and less awkward than Bo, and some of them started MMA careers 20+ years ago. Xtreme Couture was good at developing wrestlers as well.
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the thing is, i don't think there are many US wrestlers who WANT to do MMA anymore, and the ones who DO, end up flopping a lot of times. you can even see how a lot of them fight, they have no urgency, looks like they're going through the motions and phoning it in. i agree with AKA and Xtreme Couture. someone needs to get ahold of these guys and TRAIN THEM and/or stop looking at the known wrestlers and look at JC wrestlers, div2/div3 wrestlers. they gotta stop trying to get all the famous wrestlers and find the guys who might not be the best wrestlers but they have all the attributes to be a good fighter, like Jon Jones. he wasn't some super elite wrestler in wrestling, but in MMA he's the man. but it seems like all the accomplished wrestlers are the ones who get the hype.
 
High level conditioning. The ability to defend TDs and get back to the feet while not giving up positional advantages. Thr ability to make them pay, inflict damage when closing the distance. You need to have them 2nd guessing and doubting the ability to secure the TD and weary to close the distance. Also you need you to set the pace and not let them get comfortable. Never give a clean break when transitioning out of grappling sequences. Hit them hard on the breaks
 
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You talking someone with long wrestling background, and a pretty good one

Those dudes over there start very early learning their own bodies and executing/defending TDs at a young age

Then they start to pick up submission games and striking arsenals, so basically groomed in that sense
 
"by dagestani fighters" you mean people in the abdulmanap clan who train at aka

there is not a single dagestani mma champion not from the abdulmanap family
 
Hassan Mouzine said:
dustin definately improved his takedown defense, he basically looked as if he maximized his potential but still there was never a moment in the fight where I thought he was ahead. he just did much better than expected.
i felt a bit sorry for him that such a high level takedown by Islam at the end followed by a submission happened. it reeally was a thing of beauty but I think dustin is a cool dude and would have wished for him to lose a judges decision rather than Islam putting an exclemation point. 3 times finished in title fights is tough.

but then again......that takedown and finish were a beautiful ending to a competetive fight.

i really dont know what kind of gameplan there can be implemented to dethrone the dagestani's. they are smart as well....they will not keep on fighting like tony or bj when they are losing a step. they look beyond the life of fighting. i think copying their style is what will happen
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how did dustin "maximize his potential" at 36?
dude is jurassic
 
mister piscadinha said:
how did dustin "maximize his potential" at 36?
dude is jurassic
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i meant his defensive grappling/wrestling. once it hit the ground against khabib he really was a fish out of the water. against islam he got taken down as well but survived better and as the match went on, he got better at defending some of the takedowns. i dont think dustin will get any better at this part of the mma game. age is not a factor in this......he clearly showed grappling improvements and thus in my opinion maximized his potential
 
Doctor Grudge said:
I know this is a boring thing to say....but Umar/Usman are different from Islam who is different from Khabib.

Umar and his brother are naturally strikers, who worked hard on their wrestling when they made the transition to MMA. They became good wrestlers by training at Khabib's gym after they were already established martial artists. Yes, they wrestled as kids so they had a base, but were not stand outs or anything.

Corey lost to Umar because he couldn't out strike him. The fact that Corey didn't have the option of taking him down like he did against Jingliang was a factor, but people thinking that the problem with Umar is stopping his takedowns at the elite level are missing why he is good.
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exactly, it's why i see o'malley beating umar
he may not have cory's anti-grappling, but his striking is much better, he's much faster
i see a scenario similar to sean vs sterling
 
Hassan Mouzine said:
i meant his defensive grappling/wrestling. once it hit the ground against khabib he really was a fish out of the water. against islam he got taken down as well but survived better and as the match went on, he got better at defending some of the takedowns. i dont think dustin will get any better at this part of the mma game. age is not a factor in this......he clearly showed grappling improvements and thus in my opinion maximized his potential
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yeah, i got after reading ur post again
it's a shame really, poirer would have done more against khabib had he prepared better grappling wise
 
mkt said:
And there doesn't seem to be any interest in developing U.S. wrestlers into MMA fighters any more. Look at AKA: Cain, Fitch, Koscheck, Cormier, etc. What gym is bringing in guys from D1 (or Olympics in Cormier's case) and actually helping them cross-train? All the guys I mentioned were more well-rounded and less awkward than Bo, and some of them started MMA careers 20+ years ago. Xtreme Couture was good at developing wrestlers as well.
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Why do they have to be from D1? A lot of guys would destroy Jon Fitch in wrestling who never wrestled in D1.

The relationship between elite American wrestler and good MMA guy is misunderstood. A large reason why so many of the top fighters in the UFC were American and had wrestling backgrounds is because the UFC signed a large amount of them, and the talent pool of athletes were lower in general.

Having athletes with NCAA backgrounds was a way to legitimize MMA. That's really the major reason why the UFC pushed wrestlers so hard. Khabib isn't dominant because he's the best wrestler. Khabib would destroy Josh Koscheck in a fight, and Koscheck is definitely a superior wrestler.


Abdulmanap consistently generates guys who win the national and world sambo championship, meaning they beat other Dagestani, Russians, FUSSR people. So it's more than just the fact they grow up with wrestling.
 
Call me crazy but Topuria has the skillset imo, crisp boxing, well rounded, and KO power. If Topuria was the same size as Islam I'd favor him over anyone else at 155. I low-key think he might have the best chance even at his size from 145-155
 
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