Social What positives have muslims brought to the West?

[MadSquabbles500]

I'm going to throw my hat in, since I see a lot of people shitting on Muslims in here, even going with retarded statements that Muslims have brought nothing positive to the world.
So before we dive in to history, let's first satisfy the first requirement before they can move the goal post to somewhere, as is their modus operandi the way the bigots work here.

In regards to the modern scientists, I tried to confirm if they are Muslims by faith, rather than just birth, because the usual suspects here on this forum, will immediately pounce on that and claim that they're not Muslims and that they achieved what they did, despite Islam, without being able to prove their assertion of course.

By the way, I found it quite disturbing that many of the modern era Muslim scientists have been assassinated with Mossad as the likely culprit.

So let's start.
Abdus Salam

Jamal Nazrul Islam

Aziz Sancar

Atta-ur-Rahman

Salimuzzaman Siddiqui

Ahmed Zewail

Masatoshi Gündüz Ikeda

I am not trying rag on the Moslems, but those people you posted are more beneficiaries of western education, and privileges afforded to them by the west, than we, the west, are indebted to them. Without these people, any number of our own scientists can do what they have done. Its just a matter of getting them the grant money.

 

[ElKarlo]

So, you don't think Theodosius making christianity the official religion of the Empire, followed by a wave of anti hellenic purges across the empire by christian fanatics to have contributed towards the elimination of greek sources and greek proficiency throughout Europe had anything to do with the loss of Greek sources throughout the European world, and not the Islamic world?

Haha no not at all. You're a fool. I can't even understand . Did you read my post? No you clearly didn't. Go back and read what I wrote. Delving literacy was about as bad a problem as your reading comprehension.

 

[Happy Man]

Starting with Theodosius, Christian Emperor of Rome, a hatred of paganism and hellenism swept the Roman world. So much information was burned. This sentiment carried over into post Roman Europe, creating the Dark Ages.

Fucking hell.

It was Catholic monasteries that saved as much information a son possible! Every book was painstakingly (and beautifully) copied by scores of monks in hundreds of cloisters and other areas wherebtjey could work.

They didnt fucking burn the great works of the pagan romans and Greeks, they did their best to save them!!! Letting later generations rediscover the classic greats and lead into the reinessaince.

You know who burned shit? Pagan romans, pagan Babylonians, pagan goths and vandals, pagan Huns, pagan Mongols later on.

 

[InternetHero]

Starting with Theodosius, Christian Emperor of Rome, a hatred of paganism and hellenism swept the Roman world. So much information was burned. This sentiment carried over into post Roman Europe, creating the Dark Ages.

That's about 99% inaccurate, although it is understandable logic, as this trope as it is widespread in media and culture.

There were a handful of incidents were something like this would happen in the early Christian age. Further in few times, scattered across Europe and North Africa where this happened it was rarely an exercise of Christian authority but usually mob justice (violence), petty grievances, and a clash of culture.

Perhaps not without irony, the kind of things Christ allegedly died to prevent.

It kind of reminds me (rather humorously) of David Hart's classic essay criticizing Hitchens's "God is not Great," where he presented some of his logical laugh lines. Such as:

Hart joking about Hitchens conclusions:

Major Premise : [omitted]

Minor Premise : There are many bad men who are Buddhists.

Conclusion : All religious claims are false.

Then just as funny, Hart joking about conclusions he might make using the same sort of standards.

Major Premise : [omitted]

Minor Premise : Medieval scriptoria saved much of the literature of classical antiquity from total eclipse.

Conclusion : All religious claims are true.

(We did it! Yes!)

Fucking hell.

It was Catholic monasteries that saved as much information a son possible! Every book was painstakingly (and beautifully) copied by scores of monks in hundreds of cloisters and other areas wherebtjey could work.

They didnt fucking burn the great works of the pagan romans and Greeks, they did their best to save them!!! Letting later generations rediscover the classic greats and lead into the reinessaince.

You know who burned shit? Pagan romans, pagan Babylonians, pagan goths and vandals, pagan Huns, pagan Mongols later on.

This is much more accurate, although, the story/history is very complicated.

 

[hillelslovak87]

Fucking hell.

It was Catholic monasteries that saved as much information a son possible! Every book was painstakingly (and beautifully) copied by scores of monks in hundreds of cloisters and other areas wherebtjey could work.

They didnt fucking burn the great works of the pagan romans and Greeks, they did their best to save them!!! Letting later generations rediscover the classic greats and lead into the reinessaince.

You know who burned shit? Pagan romans, pagan Babylonians, pagan goths and vandals, pagan Huns, pagan Mongols later on.

Oh, so the purge of Theodosius never happened? Odd. I wonder why The Moors reintroducing many works like Aristotle back into christian Europe through Andalucia was seen as such a turning point in seeding the renaissance.

 

[hillelslovak87]

Haha no not at all. You're a fool. I can't even understand . Did you read my post? No you clearly didn't. Go back and read what I wrote. Delving literacy was about as bad a problem as your reading comprehension.

You stated that it was the crisis of the 3rd century that was the cause of the loss of knowledge, and not a deliberate campaign, sanctioned by the emperor, by christians that lasted decades in which countless pagans were slaughtered and their writings and temples destroyed as the cause for this lack of information in the dark ages.

Seems odd to set up a campaign of destruction when literacy was so bad, nobody could read Greek in the first place or preserve Hellenic writings.

Don't make fun of someone's grammar when you write in such a fragmented and ill formed manner.

 

[Happy Man]

Oh, so the purge of Theodosius never happened? Odd. I wonder why The Moors reintroducing many works like Aristotle back into christian Europe through Andalucia was seen as such a turning point in seeding the renaissance.

What liberal rewriting of history is this nonsense? Let me guess, Hannibal was black,Carthage was black, ancient Egypt was black, Ancient Greece was black, the Israelites and king David were black, Jesus was black, ancient Romans were black, the Jacobite Scottish were black... and blah blah blah.

This nonsense never ends

 

[hillelslovak87]

What liberal rewriting of history is this nonsense? Let me guess, Hannibal was black,Carthage was black, ancient Egypt was black, Ancient Greece was black, the Israelites and king David were black, Jesus was black, ancient Romans were black, the Jacobite Scottish were black... and blah blah blah.

This nonsense never ends

What on Earth are you talking about?

 

[InternetHero]

Oh, so the purge of Theodosius never happened? Odd. I wonder why The Moors reintroducing many works like Aristotle back into christian Europe through Andalucia was seen as such a turning point in seeding the renaissance.

They did, to what extent is a hotly debated topic among serious historians.

Have you ever noticed that people are fickle and do not allow much in the way of decision from their beliefs?

I have a few questions as well:

1. Did the pagan/Romans try to eliminate the early Christians?

2. When the empire fell, did the pagan/Romans try to summarily blame the Christians?

3. Why did Augustine write the all time Western classic "The City of God," do you think it was an attempt at reconciling 1 +2 and Theodosius depredations?

 

[ElKarlo]

Oh, so the purge of Theodosius never happened? Odd. I wonder why The Moors reintroducing many works like Aristotle back into christian Europe through Andalucia was seen as such a turning point in seeding the renaissance.

Because you fundamentally don't understand. Literacy is a luxury. People stopped making pottery with wheels in many parts if western Europe due to instability . Islam helped bring about the end of late antiquity . The Rhomans still had the works. They were busy fighting the Arabs and the turks and never transmitted much until the fourth crusade happened. You think one emperor was able to wipe out hundreds of years if works with a decree? It doesn't work that way. Centralization didn't really happen in that level until well I to the 1600s. Napoleon may e had that power to be honest, no Roman nor Rhoman emperor had that much power. Look at iconoclastic struggles. The Rhomans couldn't stamp that out despite support from the army.
Start reading more and stop thinking s single guy did it all. That's CT nonsense

 

[ElKarlo]

You stated that it was the crisis of the 3rd century that was the cause of the loss of knowledge, and not a deliberate campaign, sanctioned by the emperor, by christians that lasted decades in which countless pagans were slaughtered and their writings and temples destroyed as the cause for this lack of information in the dark ages.

Seems odd to set up a campaign of destruction when literacy was so bad, nobody could read Greek in the first place or preserve Hellenic writings.

Don't make fun of someone's grammar when you write in such a fragmented and ill formed manner.

I didn't make fun of your grammar. I made fun if your reading comprehension .
I addressed your "opinion" in my previous post

 

[InternetHero]

Because you fundamentally don't understand. Literacy is a luxury. People stopped making pottery with wheels in many parts if western Europe due to instability . Islam helped bring about the end of late antiquity . The Rhomans still had the works. They were busy fighting the Arabs and the turks and never transmitted much until the fourth crusade happened. You think one emperor was able to wipe out hundreds of years if works with a decree? It doesn't work that way. Centralization didn't really happen in that level until well I to the 1600s. Napoleon may e had that power to be honest, no Roman nor Rhoman emperor had that much power. Look at iconoclastic struggles. The Rhomans couldn't stamp that out despite support from the army.
Start reading more and stop thinking s single guy did it all. That's CT nonsense

Yeah.

The central highlands of Turkey used to be the uneasy dividing line between Jihad and Crusade. The Christ and the Prophet. A lot of great thinkers came out of early North Africa, the Levant, and south Europe. The collapse of the Roman Empire and Muslim conquest and Christian crusades (Let's not forget the Hun's either) really did a lot to destroy the civilized framework and scholarly system beneath, as well as to harden positions with such readily available outside enemies.

European Farmer: "I just want to grow some crops and not starve or be hung by my feudal lord..."

Huns, Nordic tribes, Central Asian, and Muslim conquers: "Cool story, farmer bro. How about I put you to the sword, make your boy part of my harem, and send your wife off to my cousin in farawayland? lol K."

History was hard.

As well, I do not like the premise of this thread at all.

It should be titled "what has Islam brought," just listing Muslims is meant to blame people as an accusatory question.

 

[hillelslovak87]

I didn't make fun of your grammar. I made fun if your reading comprehension .
I addressed your "opinion" in my previous post

Oh, I guess I was baffled by "Delving Literacy"..........

Because you fundamentally don't understand. Literacy is a luxury. People stopped making pottery with wheels in many parts if western Europe due to instability . Islam helped bring about the end of late antiquity . The Rhomans still had the works. They were busy fighting the Arabs and the turks and never transmitted much until the fourth crusade happened. You think one emperor was able to wipe out hundreds of years if works with a decree? It doesn't work that way. Centralization didn't really happen in that level until well I to the 1600s. Napoleon may e had that power to be honest, no Roman nor Rhoman emperor had that much power. Look at iconoclastic struggles. The Rhomans couldn't stamp that out despite support from the army.
Start reading more and stop thinking s single guy did it all. That's CT nonsense

Theodosius did not simply issue a decree. He allowed decades of slaughter, theft and destruction take place across his empire by Christians unto Pagans.

The Christian West utilized Latin, which only preserved about 2 books from Aristotle. Hardly anybody in Europe had access to Ancient Greek, much less could translate it. Muslim scholars translated these works from Arabic into Latin, and circulated them originally through Andalucia.

It happened, and is often cited as the turning point that seeded the renaissance. I don't know how to break that to you and not expect whinging back.....

 

[Fronk]

They did, to what extent is a hotly debated topic among serious historians.

Have you ever noticed that people are fickle and do not allow much in the way of decision from their beliefs?

I have a few questions as well:

1. Did the pagan/Romans try to eliminate the early Christians?

2. When the empire fell, did the pagan/Romans try to summarily blame the Christians?

3. Why did Augustine write the all time Western classic "The City of God," do you think it was an attempt at reconciling 1 +2 and Theodosius depredations?

Speaking about Augustine and the classical greeks, like the most classical of them all... Greek thought is ingrained into christianity.

 

[InternetHero]

Speaking about Augustine and the classical greeks, like the most classical of them all... Greek thought is ingrained into christianity.

Saint Augustine preferred Latin works, but enjoyed the Greek pulp of the time (Homer, for example.) In Augustine's "Confessions" he has a humorous aside where he goes into Latin > Greek in his early days.

You're right though. Kind of an incredible thing about history,

Aristotle: "I wrote all these marvelous things on virtue... now if only I had a higher truth to apply them to..."

Aquinas: "Eureka!"

 

[hillelslovak87]

They did, to what extent is a hotly debated topic among serious historians.

Have you ever noticed that people are fickle and do not allow much in the way of decision from their beliefs?

I have a few questions as well:

1. Did the pagan/Romans try to eliminate the early Christians?

2. When the empire fell, did the pagan/Romans try to summarily blame the Christians?

3. Why did Augustine write the all time Western classic "The City of God," do you think it was an attempt at reconciling 1 +2 and Theodosius depredations?

1. Yes, this is not in dispute, and is not at all pertinent.

2. Yes, this is also not pertinent.

3. I don't really care for Augustine's polemic, and forgive me if I don't take his word on the fall of the Roman empire, seeing where his story begins in point of time.

 

[InternetHero]

1. Yes, this is not in dispute, and is not at all pertinent.

2. Yes, this is also not pertinent.

3. I don't really care for Augustine's polemic, and forgive me if I don't take his word on the fall of the Roman empire, seeing where his story begins in point of time.

You have no understanding of history or religion, do you?

 

[Bald1]

The last few pages of this thread have made me feel pretty ignorant. And as no one person can know everything I'm ok with that. Thanks for relieving me of a tiny bit of that ignorance guys. Cheers.

 

[hillelslovak87]

You have no understanding of history or religion, do you?

Whether or not christians or pagans persecuted each other is somewhat immaterial. The importance lies in the christian world being cut off from such foundational works like those of Aristotle due to Theodosius sanctioning the destruction of said works. The christian world paid a heavy price for these decisions, like those of future European leaders who modeled their nations on the model of the Holy Roman Empire to ban or forbid the same information.

 

[ElKarlo]

Oh, I guess I was baffled by "Delving Literacy"..........


Theodosius did not simply issue a decree. He allowed decades of slaughter, theft and destruction take place across his empire by Christians unto Pagans.

The Christian West utilized Latin, which only preserved about 2 books from Aristotle. Hardly anybody in Europe had access to Ancient Greek, much less could translate it. Muslim scholars translated these works from Arabic into Latin, and circulated them originally through Andalucia.

It happened, and is often cited as the turning point that seeded the renaissance. I don't know how to break that to you and not expect whinging back.....

Le Sigh. Yes, he did go after paganism. So, you think he and so rioters, who were basically carrying our pogroms were able to annihilate all ancient works? No, they didn't, as A that is impossible and B, they were going after Pagan temples and other areas of worship. As to remove their public houses of worship showed that they no longer had power in the empire on a political level. It was the same as when Dioclation or others persecuted the Christians. They removed them from govt positions and wrecked their holy sites. They didn't wipe out the scriptures. Same with the Jews despite massive revolts and severe repressions. They never lost their texts.

Of course fewer and fewer could speak Greek in the west. The upper classes could, but that went away too with the crisis of the late empire. People being able to speak Greek was a luxury and it needed an infusion of Greek teachers to be maintained. With instability in the west, this died out. Again the Rhomas still spoke Greek and still rewrote their texts into medieval Greek. The ancient works never died off. Instead the Rhomas were killed off by the Turks.
You're not making any points. You're just recycling old cliches, and you obviously have no grasp on any of the severity of what was occurring in the late Roman empire. If there hadn't been the Arab invasions, the stability afforded to the west and the Rhomans probaly would have allowed them to develop much quicker and allowed for dispersion of the texts from the Rhomans to the west.

 

[hillelslovak87]

Le Sigh. Yes, he did go after paganism. So, you think he and so rioters, who were basically carrying our pogroms were able to annihilate all ancient works? No, they didn't, as A that is impossible and B, they were going after Pagan temples and other areas of worship. As to remove their public houses of worship showed that they no longer had power in the empire on a political level. It was the same as when Dioclation or others persecuted the Christians. They removed them from govt positions and wrecked their holy sites. They didn't wipe out the scriptures. Same with the Jews despite massive revolts and severe repressions. They never lost their texts.

Of course fewer and fewer could speak Greek in the west. The upper classes could, but that went away too with the crisis of the late empire. People being able to speak Greek was a luxury and it needed an infusion of Greek teachers to be maintained. With instability in the west, this died out. Again the Rhomas still spoke Greek and still rewrote their texts into medieval Greek. The ancient works never died off. Instead the Rhomas were killed off by the Turks.
You're not making any points. You're just recycling old cliches, and you obviously have no grasp on any of the severity of what was occurring in the late Roman empire. If there hadn't been the Arab invasions, the stability afforded to the west and the Rhomans probaly would have allowed them to develop much quicker and allowed for dispersion of the texts from the Rhomans to the west.

The western Roman Empire was the realm that constricted and destroyed these works where they could find them. The Eastern Empire did not. After the fall of the Empire the Western portion in Europe languished due to Christian Kings and leaders following the model of Roman Christian Emperors like Theodosius and Constantine, while the Eastern side became the Bynzantine Empire, free from this languishing period.

There was simply nobody in Europe who had access to ancient greek texts, and could translate or even read them. This is pretty well accepted.