Social What positives have muslims brought to the West?

[ElKarlo]

Yeah.

The central highlands of Turkey used to be the uneasy dividing line between Jihad and Crusade. The Christ and the Prophet. A lot of great thinkers came out of early North Africa, the Levant, and south Europe. The collapse of the Roman Empire and Muslim conquest and Christian crusades (Let's not forget the Hun's either) really did a lot to destroy the civilized framework and scholarly system beneath, as well as to harden positions with such readily available outside enemies.

European Farmer: "I just want to grow some crops and not starve or be hung by my feudal lord..."

Huns, Nordic tribes, Central Asian, and Muslim conquers: "Cool story, farmer bro. How about I put you to the sword, make your boy part of my harem, and send your wife off to my cousin in farawayland? lol K."

History was hard.

As well, I do not like the premise of this thread at all.

It should be titled "what has Islam brought," just listing Muslims is meant to blame people as an accusatory question.

Word man, people don't understand that until you have something that easily dies. For me language. If I don't fight everyday, my kids won't be able to speak English, and then my grand kids probably wouldn't be able to understand me.

Marauding hordes like the Turks, Arabs, Huns, Alans, and the Germans made things hard. Being disturbed during harvest or planting season could be fatal. Or just make you malnourished and susceptible to diseases.
Plus laving hurt labor, and made it harder to maintain cities or civilization on a larger level.

 

[InternetHero]

The last few pages of this thread have made me feel pretty ignorant. And as no one person can know everything I'm ok with that. Thanks for relieving me of a tiny bit of that ignorance guys. Cheers.

Not to worry, there is a lot to learn from ElKaro, and you teach us all a lot of good logical points on other subjects.

Besides, you're in good company.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_that_I_know_nothing

Or as an ancient Proverb of Solomon might have said,

The way of a fool is right in his own eyes,
but a wise man listens to advice.

Something that all religions hold in common - only the humble will know God, wisdom, the higher truths.

To see outside of the prison of man's eyes, a brother's thoughts, and a harsh world.

 

[ElKarlo]

The western Roman Empire was the realm that constricted and destroyed these works where they could find them. The Eastern Empire did not. After the fall of the Empire the Western portion in Europe languished due to Christian Kings and leaders following the model of Roman Christian Emperors like Theodosius and Constantine, while the Eastern side became the Bynzantine Empire, free from this languishing period.

There was simply nobody in Europe who had access to ancient greek texts, and could translate or even read them. This is pretty well accepted.

Again, you asserting things that aren't true. None of what you said is true. None of it. You managed to be completely wrong and unable to cope with it, so you're doubling down on being wrong.

 

[ElKarlo]

Not to worry, there is a lot to learn from ElKaro, and you teach us all a lot of good logical points on other subjects.

Besides, you're in good company.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_that_I_know_nothing

Or as an ancient Proverb of Solomon might have said,

The way of a fool is right in his own eyes,
but a wise man listens to advice.

Something that all religions hold in common - only the humble will know God, wisdom, the higher truths.

To see outside of the prison of man's eyes, a brother's thoughts, and a harsh world.

Thanks man. Before I had kids, I literally read a history book a week. There nerds that shame me though. They know where emperors were in certain years or what ministers they had. It's nuts.

 

[InternetHero]

Word man, people don't understand that until you have something that easily dies. For me language. If I don't fight everyday, my kids won't be able to speak English, and then my grand kids probably wouldn't be able to understand me.

Marauding hordes like the Turks, Arabs, Huns, Alans, and the Germans made things hard. Being disturbed during harvest or planting season could be fatal. Or just make you malnourished and susceptible to diseases.
Plus laving hurt labor, and made it harder to maintain cities or civilization on a larger level.

And in a mere 200 years we largely escaped all this, that we might retreat to virtual communities and complain about why nobody listens to our feelings...

 

[hillelslovak87]

Again, you asserting things that aren't true. None of what you said is true. None of it. You managed to be completely wrong and unable to cope with it, so you're doubling down on being wrong.

How? Explain why the recovery of Aristotle is a pretty settled subject.

 

[ElKarlo]

And in a mere 200 years we largely escaped all this, that we might retreat to virtual communities and complain about why nobody listens to our feelings...

Thing is we think it's always been like that. It's hard to imagine how seemingly out of nowhere a horde or a fleet could come in and carry off half your population and take all your crops and livestock, leaving you to starve. Outside of grains, you couldn't preserve much. So you couldn't store up years of food, even if you wanted. So years without a summer like 1816, or the crazy weather of 536(?) could mess up your whole society.
Even the trust nowdays is way better. Look at stocks. Yes, there as still liars and cheats, but 120 years ago, it was easy to cheat and scam everyone. Now there is a lot more confidence in being able to trust the system. These systems compound themselves.

 

[InternetHero]

Thing is we think it's always been like that. It's hard to imagine how seemingly out of nowhere a horde or a fleet could come in and carry off half your population and take all your crops and livestock, leaving you to starve. Outside of grains, you couldn't preserve much. So you couldn't store up years of food, even if you wanted. So years without a summer like 1816, or the crazy weather of 536(?) could mess up your whole society.
Even the trust nowdays is way better. Look at stocks. Yes, there as still liars and cheats, but 120 years ago, it was easy to cheat and scam everyone. Now there is a lot more confidence in being able to trust the system. These systems compound themselves.

Great post, when you mentioned the hordes and famines my mind considered 1816, and then boom, you were ahead!

Excellent! On the plus side, all the famines and woes of 1816 gave us "Darkness" by Lord Byron:

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43825/darkness-56d222aeeee1b

As for the system, things get so complicated at that point. Humans are so well designed to be distraught that they turn and bite the system that feeds them, clothes, them, and turns on a literal light in the night.

Few are thankful, and most cry out in woe, "Why is my life so hard!" with no recollection of what hardship is, what to possibly do about it, or to care to look.

I can not blame them either, I was them and much more.

I do not want to blame them either even if they are to blame. From the earliest days people have been looking for "why" life is this way and "why" their life has meaning.

The answer "nothing" is terrifying and anything else seems like fairy tales, if there is truth in the fantasy though, I have found that to be much more cosmically unsettling as rewarding.

The first command given to Abraham, to any prophet, was to be afraid, although the fear can not be explained like being a lone in the dark, or threatened with violence, the other word, "awe."

That seems so unfair today. In my self cocooned comfort why not just be "nice" to everyone at all times? Accept everything, believe anything, and return to Jean-Jacques's jocular world of primitive escape.

Then, wonder about those ancient others, no wait... "awe," what is love without respect, what is respect without love.

 

[tkotom]

If we want to play that game, Europeans as a whole have contributed very little to humanity unless we consider plague, overpopulation, colonization, and human trafficking to be contributions.

Here's the part no one likes to admit: race and ethnicity don't matter as much as racist people want to believe because most humans are assholes. Some of them are amazing, but a large portion of the Homo sapiens on the planet are violent stupid shit heads.

You’ve got to be joking lol.

Flight, engine, railway, industry, modern fuel, rubber, nearly all of modern physics and mathematics, nearly all of modern medicine...all European.

Overpopulation? LMFAO you lying dweeb. Go visit India, Bangladesh, Pakistan and China where rape, child exploitation, defecation in the street and sex addiction without a single thought for women controlling their own vaginas are rampant and their populations number more than half the world population. And you want to add plague and hygiene in there with overpopulation. Fuck you man lol.

And no, there’s a reason people from the third world flock to the west, because at this point, the ethnically homogenous western nations built the greatest societies to ever exist. Maybe not anymore though.

 

[ElKarlo]

Great post, when you mentioned the hordes and famines my mind considered 1816, and then boom, you were ahead!

Excellent! On the plus side, all the famines and woes of 1816 gave us "Darkness" by Lord Byron:

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43825/darkness-56d222aeeee1b

As for the system, things get so complicated at that point. Humans are so well designed to be distraught that they turn and bite the system that feeds them, clothes, them, and turns on a literal light in the night.

Few are thankful, and most cry out in woe, "Why is my life so hard!" with no recollection of what hardship is, what to possibly do about it, or to care to look.

I can not blame them either, I was them and much more.

I do not want to blame them either even if they are to blame. From the earliest days people have been looking for "why" life is this way and "why" their life has meaning.

The answer "nothing" is terrifying and anything else seems like fairy tales, if there is truth in the fantasy though, I have found that to be much more cosmically unsettling as rewarding.

The first command given to Abraham, to any prophet, was to be afraid, although the fear can not be explained like being a lone in the dark, or threatened with violence, the other word, "awe."

That seems so unfair today. In my self cocooned comfort why not just be "nice" to everyone at all times? Accept everything, believe anything, and return to Jean-Jacques's jocular world of primitive escape.

Then, wonder about those ancient others, no wait... "awe," what is love without respect, what is respect without love.

Haha, right on 1816 was weird, and it's cool that it was modern enough that a lot of art from that time period still survives.
It's interesting how society didn't collapse in 1816, despite a massive war and then a harvest destroying weather event.
Also, in 1315-1317 there was another series of wet cold summers. People ate their seed crops and their children died of malnutrition, yet society didn't collapse.

Indeed, fear. The sea people til now, there have been so many disasters man and nature both. Stability is not a sure thing, and comes only through great effort. Wonder if that's why we like zombie movies, as we have some sort of shared memory about things going to crap and that is how we survive. Get a group, seek the mtns, just like people did in the Bronze Age collapse, where cities on the coasts went away and people went to the mtns for safety.

 

[meauneau]

@Starman please respond

 

[Islam Imamate]

European Farmer: "I just want to grow some crops and not starve or be hung by my feudal lord..."

Huns, Nordic tribes, Central Asian, and Muslim conquers: "Cool story, farmer bro. How about I put you to the sword, make your boy part of my harem, and send your wife off to my cousin in farawayland? lol K."

History was hard.

As well, I do not like the premise of this thread at all.

It should be titled "what has Islam brought," just listing Muslims is meant to blame people as an accusatory question.

That's pretty misleading. The Arab conquerors did not change the reality on the ground for Christian peasants that much, in fact many Christians did better under Muslim rule than under Byzantine rule since they could've faced persecution as a heterodox sect.

Sure in the border regions slaving raids were a problem but so excessive taxation by the Christian lords.

 

[Fronk]

That's pretty misleading. The Arab conquerors did not change the reality on the ground for Christian peasants that much, in fact many Christians did better under Muslim rule than under Byzantine rule since they could've faced persecution as a heterodox sect.

Sure in the border regions slaving raids were a problem but so excessive taxation by the Christian lords.

Exactly, there is a reason a basically very obscure cult managed to sweep over the East and conquer an Empire. Centuries of war between the sassanids and the ERE was taking its toll. Compared to the convoluted and inexplicable bureaucracy and tax systems of the Byzantines the Muslims were basically saviours. It's all relative.

The early Muslims really were at the right time at the right place.

 

[SRN]

They made this look become a thing again?

 

[Bald1]

ISLAM IS FUCKING TRASH, MUSLIUMS ARE TRASH. EVERYONE OF THEM

PARIS IS NO LONGER PARIS

Ban this clown.

 

[ElKarlo]

Exactly, there is a reason a basically very obscure cult managed to sweep over the East and conquer an Empire. Centuries of war between the sassanids and the ERE was taking its toll. Compared to the convoluted and inexplicable bureaucracy and tax systems of the Byzantines the Muslims were basically saviours. It's all relative.

The early Muslims really were at the right time at the right place.

Oh yeah, basically the Arabs rolled out right after the Rhomans and the Sasanian had finished a WWI+WWII with each other. THh Rhomas had been ejected from the Levant and Egypt for 20 years. That's long enough to make a huge part of the pop forget what it's like to be ruled by you.
The empire was devastated and broke. They cut funding, and raised taxes. This caused unhappiness. The stopped paying the Arabs in the border areas to protect the borders. Raids from the Arabia increased, diminishing the rational for Rhoman rule. Plus the Sas allowed greater religious freedom, and the Rhomans in Anatolia were dyophysite while the areas under Sas rule were Monopysite.
The Arabs came in force, and they weren't true Muslims yet imho http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=15&t=009213 and they slowly replaced Rhoman rule as they became Muslims. Or perhaps as Muslim doctrine was solidified.

 

[InternetHero]

That's pretty misleading. The Arab conquerors did not change the reality on the ground for Christian peasants that much, in fact many Christians did better under Muslim rule than under Byzantine rule since they could've faced persecution as a heterodox sect.

Sure in the border regions slaving raids were a problem but so excessive taxation by the Christian lords.

Hmm. Peasants where? The Byzantine Levant or in North African antiquity? Life in these ex-Romance enclaves is not very simply compared to the life of comparatively backwards Germanic, Gaelic, or British Islander principalities, and East/West Roman of course were free falling as the structures of governance, power, and civil society/integration evaporated.

The Arab Conquests might have marginally improved life after the subsequent invasions, I'm open to that argument. (I think the results might be rather mixed. Before the Mongols came in and wrecked modern day Iraq, for example, as well as the Persian sphere of influence, there was indeed a very high degree of advancement under Islam. In the post-Christian Levant, much of north Africa, and eastern Turkey things took a turn for the worse. In Eastern Turkey the crusades were also to blame. As well, the pan-Arab regions where the conflicts had passed were often relatively generous in some areas to different religions and cultures (for the times) and where conflicts were fresh, rather murderous, more on that in just a second, like right now.) However, the plundering, slave-taking, and general butchery of the Muslim Conquests were very destabilizing, as were the Islamic pan-Arab scorched-earth tactics of warfare from central Spain to the highlands of Turkey. There was widespread devastating and civilization disruption.

The attempts to uproot the Christian north of Spain were nothing short of barbarous by even contemporary regional standards. A lot of slavery, heads on pikes, and genocidal actions/attempts.

This is the thing, though, the pan-Arab conquests were on of several destabilizing conquests.

The larger point about life is that being a European peasant sucked, as in our view, did most peoples' lives of the past. Of all the suck, being a Russian peasant, now that was something else... that deep Russian sense of gloom and despair holds tight in a lot of ways, through time.

 

[InternetHero]

Ban this clown.

I think he should enlarge the capital letters and add bold text so that we don't miss any important nuanced educational points about the religion of over a billion people.

I want my truth telling loud and proud in as few letters possible.

Examples:

ORANGE MAN BAD.

MAGMA BIGGLY GOOD.

ISLAM KILLS YOU.

CHRISTIAN HATE GAYS.

GAYS HATES BIRTHDAYS CAKES.

BATHROOMS ARE GENDER CONFUSING. Y/N!

Are all acceptable.

 

[hisandherpes]

kebab and hummus

 

[RockstarChris]

God