What exactly is Brazilian about BJJ? (Flame invitation)

[Zankou]

As evidenced by the fact that Helio didn't even know what a kimura was, he obviously didn't learn that much directly from Maeda over a few years. BJJ "redeveloped" the basic judo grappling techniques over time, as any system would if you give it enough time.

Nowadays it's all mixed together. You see some stuff in modern BJJ that I doubt you saw in traditional judo -- like upside down spider guard or complicated rubber guard work. But it's all just grappling.

 

[Alzi_]

Helio didn't learn the stand up part of judo just because it was more difficult to learn than ground work part
He didn't know how to throw using "technique" instead of strenght so he didn't use it and he work only on ne waza .

This is a part of an article about Sensei Mehdi

http://www.geocities.com/global_training_report/mehdi.htm

What a crock of bullshit! Throwing is more difficult than grappling? Is that why judokas get their BBs in 2 years instead of 10+ years like in jiu-jitsu?

The Gracies did not learn judo from Maeda. Maeda's judo was newaza-oriented which is quite different from the judo that Jigaro Kano implemented. This is one of the reasons why he insisted on calling his art jiu-jitsu and not judo.

 

[Thalion]

What a crock of bullshit! Throwing is more difficult than grappling? Is that why judokas get their BBs in 2 years instead of 10+ years like in jiu-jitsu?

The Gracies did not learn judo from Maeda. Maeda's judo was newaza-oriented which is quite different from the judo that Jigaro Kano implemented. This is one of the reasons why he insisted on calling his art jiu-jitsu and not judo.

Yes, get a good Stand up without being physically strong it's more difficult to get a good ground work.

To learn the basics of a technique like Uchimata need at least 6 month in training only in that throw. (With basics I mean learn to use it quite well in all the direction and both right and left).

In the same time u can learn a LOT of ground work, sweep , guard passing, choke and so on.


In Judo there is the concept of "Tokui-waza" that means ur favourite technique. Each judoka had 1 or 2 Tokui waza and some way to use them along with other throw (Renraku waza).
Even a World class athletes knew perfectly only some throw. The other's he know how to use it but he don't master them.
To Master all the Technique of the Gokyo u need an entire life
I 've seen some good Judoka, 4th and 5th dan, former National Champ that are still learning some Technique.


In Judo BB means "U can start to train judo" . Shodan means "first level" and it's the "start" and not the "goal".
In Jiu jitsu BB means "U are a master"

In italy to get a Judo BB training 3x week takes about 4-5 years (for the average joe)


Maeda Judo was just like Tomita's one (tomita was maeda master and a Kano student). At the time judo hadn't all the sport rules and it was still called "Kano Ryu Jujitsu" or "Kodokan jujitsu" from most of the people (even for some of the Kodokan student).
But the technique and training method that maeda used and teached to the Gracies was the one he learn at Kodokan.

P.s.
a good link with Kano Himself writing about difference between jujitsu and Judo.

 

[xxcrocopxx5]

ya man

 

[TheHighlander]

What a crock of bullshit! Throwing is more difficult than grappling? Is that why judokas get their BBs in 2 years instead of 10+ years like in jiu-jitsu?

Tell that to the majority of competitors at ADCC. Better yet, watch the matches. The standing portion is extremely difficult to MASTER. Also, think of it this way: throws involve everything that you see on the ground, plus gravity has a much bigger impact and it's more three-dimensional. Since they are basically the same thing, the one that has the more options/problems can be considered more difficult. (Note this doesn't imply that I think one is better than the other, although I do have a preference for groundwork).

Thalion already addressed the rank comparison. Just because they are the same color doesn't mean that there is any correlation between the two. Belts are barely useful in making comparisons between students at the same school, never mind between schools.

 

[Jujitsuboxer]

only thing i have seen diff from the Kano Jujitsu i do ( pre war judo) and te BJJ i do is they BJJ has the knee on chest postion. Also they don't work on takedowns as much as a majority some schosl yes some not but yea

 

[Ybot]

IMO the only thing that caused any kind of divergence between Judo and BJJ is the rules. They developed along diffrent paths not due to diffrent techniques and philosophies but just because they rules of the game were diffrent. Nothing more than that.

I think this hits the nail on the head. Rules difference. What the difference is "Brazillian Rules" Judo has no pins and no Ippons resulting from throws. Add those rules to Judo and see what type of art it becomes in a few years.

As far as the comments that BJJ guard stuff was all known in Judo before, while techniquely true, I would have to say there definitely was a difference. From what I've seen (Kosen video) while they did have a De La Riva guard, they were not playing a De La Riva guard game, instead that guard was part of a transition into a sweep rather than a game in itself. Same for the Spider Guard. It's there but only as a transitional phase.

 

[Ryo]

For example, Kano openly addmitted that he took Morote Gari (Biana in BJJ) from western wrestling's double-leg takedown, and Kata Guruma from its fireman's carry, etc.

I hate to revive this old thread, but I would like to correct this. According to the kodokan, Kano did not take Morote Gari from Western Wrestling's double-leg takedown. It was introduced to Kano by a Judoka named Mr. Kyutaro Kanda, probably from fusen Ryu. Apparently in the Fusen Ryu days it had no official name and was usually just refered to as Ashitorinage.

http://www.kodokan.org/e_waza/morotegari.html

 

[Gsoares2***]

The moves where class is more relaxed like an actual sport. Rather than a ball room dance like most TMA.


You cant simply say bjj is kosen judo.. bjj has been evolving and still is into its own sport with its own rules, and own strengths.

I have yet to see any judo videos where guys play such dynamic and open guards..

Judo guys have great takedowns.. and attack the turtle in a truly badass fashion.. but they are not on the same playing field when it comes to the guard.

To me bjj is the guard.


To those saying Standing technique is easier than ground or vise versa. You all deserve to be shot and killed.. so that you are not aloud to spread your seed of retardation any more than it already has.

To say one is harder than the other means you dont have experience in the other one...
Ive done both.. and feel they are both take the same thing to learn them... Hard work/Dedication... thats it.

A guy with 6 months of bjj, probably knows about as much about bjj as someone with 6 months of judo training knows about judo... you cant really say one is harder than the other.. they are not even the same thing.

Its like saying apples taste better than oranges...

 

[colinm]

I hate to revive this old thread, but I would like to correct this. According to the kodokan, Kano did not take Morote Gari from Western Wrestling's double-leg takedown. It was introduced to Kano by a Judoka named Mr. Kyutaro Kanda, probably from fusen Ryu. Apparently in the Fusen Ryu days it had no official name and was usually just refered to as Ashitorinage.

http://www.kodokan.org/e_waza/morotegari.html

which explains why you judoka are doing it wrong :icon_chee :icon_chee :icon_chee

 

[The Jake]

I don't think anything was invented so much as refined from judo. Tighter ground game, removal of Japanese formality in a martial art - such as katas, bowing, formalised gradings, takedowns , etc. If you've met a few Brazilians you'll see the style most definitely has the stamp of Brazil all over it.

- J.

 

[YeahBee]

MAn what a thread!

 

[Tony Manifold]

A good clip of Judo Newaz:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4u41omoNO4U

Judo newaza isn't as clean as BJJ because speed is more important where as BJJ players have are more worried about the change in position.

A couple of things I would like to mention.

The idea that the gracies invented the challenge match is just wrong. The idea of a challenge match has a rich history in Japan. Read any account of Judo or even aikido and you will read tons of accounts of challenges to judoka or aikidoka. Judoka would go out "prove" the effectiveness of Judo. Kano considered it something of a problem, actually. As well, people would often show up at the Kodokan (or the aikido hombu dojo) and challenge the fighters there. It was very much a japanese tradtion

That Helio made judo (ie what Carlos learned from Meada) and made it useful for smaller people. Kano was a tiny man and he refined the techniques of judo for the smaller man. So following that logic, Helio took an art that was designed for smaller people and made it work for smaller people. At best, he took what he learned from his brother (who used a lot of power due to his relatively short time with JUDO) and re-emphasised the principles of leverage.

There is no doubt that at this point BJJ and Judo are very different. Most BJJ guys have weak takedowns and don't transition from a throw to a sub very well. Most Judo guys have a weak ground game outside of pins, defense and the aforementioned quick transition from throw to sub. Quite frankly, I think they are just about the perfect compliment to each other. Much better then wrestling and bjj due to the fact they come from the same route which is the original Kano Ryu jujutsu.

 

[Tony Manifold]

As an aside, the triangle BJ used on Matt Hughes is a good example of the way a triangle is used in Judo most often.

 

[georgejjr]

Really? Do guys like Karo, Yoshida, Fedor and Nakamura catch flack from the judo honchos for fighting MMA? How about inter-style grappling comps like ADCC? Is that considered OK?

No. Some judo higher ups don't know much about MMA, but those that do respect it. Yoshida was an olympic gold medalist in 1992 under 178 pounds, he gets loads of respect in judo circles for that alone. The criticism he gets about MMA is that he entered it after he was too old for judo ... it seems strange to try a new sport in your mid-thirties after you can no longer place in your old sport. And there's a sense that after receiving training in judo he should have passed it on to younger judoka when he became too old to compete himself. I'd don't agree, but Japan especially has that cultural outlook. I've heard nothing but respect for Fedor (who was a member of Russia's nationa judo team, which is probably in the top 3 in the world).

ADCC and the like are considered fine, but the top level judoka are all aiming at the olympics, so don't go into it for the same reason top level BJJ'ers don't aim for the olympics in judo ... it's not their sport. Generally judoka entering submission grappling and BJJ'ers entering high level judo comps have one thing in common ... their best fighting days in their own sport are already over.

Judo has evolved a lot since the old days, it's ground work has become very defensive in nature, while its throws have become a lot more effective (especially with respect to grips). What BJJ added is a huge sophistication on groundwork ... not the submissions themselves, but the setups (sweeps etc). The tradeoff is that judo's throws have improved dramatically over what they were even two decades ago, as well as their setups, while BJJ throws look like judo's throws did decades ago, and lack setups etc.

BJJ has emphasized the ground, judo standing, with the result that (in general) judo groundwork looks inefficient to BJJ'ers, and BJJ standing looks inefficient to judoka. Hence the need to crosstrain if you want a complete game. On the other hand, there's no grappling venue which gives equal emphasis to both ground and standing (MMA does funnily enough, or close to anyway), so most competitors emphasise one or the other, depending upon what sport they're planning to compete in.

 

[georgejjr]

To those saying Standing technique is easier than ground or vise versa. You all deserve to be shot and killed.. so that you are not aloud to spread your seed of retardation any more than it already has.

I think you mean run over by a Buick, hung from a tree, and then shot

Both require a lot of dedication to master. People who think one or the other is easy have never worked with a top level person in either ... its pretty freaky how good some people are on the ground, and how good others are standing. Cross training is definitely the way to go. In a sense something extremely useful has happened the last few decades. BJJ has refined submission technique to a fantastic degree, judo has refined jacketed standing technique to a fantastic degree, and wrestling has refined non-jacketed standing technique to a fantastic degree. Anyone clever enough to cross train can learn things that would have astounded anyone in any art thirty years ago.

 

[T K O]

Gracies placed a different emphasive the Judo/JJJ they learned.

 

[Undefiled]

To answer the original post, there isn't much brazilian about bjj. Bjj is old judo that focuses on katame waza (ground techiques). Last time I checked, coming up with new setups and transitions doesn't count as a new art. If everyone created a new art just because they found new ways to execute the basic techniques, then there would be billions of arts by now. All of the so called new techniques Bjj has created can be found in a judo book somewhere (yes the omo plata and triangle choke were around before bjj). As far as the leverage myth, anybody that has read anything about judo has read about one of judo's main principles, kuzushi (off balancing)(and yes it can be applied on the ground, not just standing). Kuzushi is what allows judoka to transition with minimum strength. I know that the same arguement can be made between (japanese) jujitsu and judo that I'm making between judo and bjj. Judo is and art for many reasons. Judo was made as an alternative to jujitsu's brutality (in other words if it wasn't for judo many of the techniques from jujitsu would not have been). Judo allows practicioners to be able to practice without the likelihood of someone dying. Kano compiled the tequniques from many jujitsuka as well as others (unlike bjj which has only 1 source for its art) and refined them since there were many ways the same tequnique was taught. Judo gave martial arts a ranking system (belts) and organization (basic skills or technique requirements and a governing body). Most martial arts have used these same ideas since then (thanks to judo). I could go on and on confirming that judo is indeed an art, but you can do more research if you want to find out more. I'm not trying to bash bjj, I just want people to realize what it really is and the misconceptions that have evolved. The techniques of bjj work and the brazilians have done a good job of marketing and promoting katame waza (ground techniques) especially in the U.S., but the art is judo.

 

[blanko]

gotta love these smurfs

 

[Jimmy Cerra]

You are inaccurate:

To answer the original post, there isn't much brazilian about bjj. Bjj is old judo that focuses on katame waza (ground techiques). Last time I checked, coming up with new setups and transitions doesn't count as a new art. If everyone created a new art just because they found new ways to execute the basic techniques, then there would be billions of arts by now. All of the so called new techniques Bjj has created can be found in a judo book somewhere (yes the omo plata and triangle choke were around before bjj).

A style is more than a set of techniques. By your logic, judo is the same as old wrestling and added nothing. Hell it is all fighting, right? Just one style, right? Of course not.

And you do realize that there are an incredible number of arts now, right?

As far as the leverage myth, anybody that has read anything about judo has read about one of judo's main principles, kuzushi (off balancing)(and yes it can be applied on the ground, not just standing). Kuzushi is what allows judoka to transition with minimum strength. I know that the same arguement can be made between (japanese) jujitsu and judo that I'm making between judo and bjj. Judo is and art for many reasons. Judo was made as an alternative to jujitsu's brutality (in other words if it wasn't for judo many of the techniques from jujitsu would not have been). Judo allows practicioners to be able to practice without the likelihood of someone dying. Kano compiled the tequniques from many jujitsuka as well as others (unlike bjj which has only 1 source for its art) and refined them since there were many ways the same tequnique was taught.

BJJ has many sources. Much of it was reinvented by the Gracies in different ways. Much of it comes from fighters who cross trained in wrestling, sambo, and other martial arts. Judo is the source of the foundation of BJJ waza, but it isn't the sole source.

Judo gave martial arts a ranking system (belts) and organization (basic skills or technique requirements and a governing body). Most martial arts have used these same ideas since then (thanks to judo).

Most martial arts in America have the same ideas because the Japanese requried it. Once judo became popular in Japan, they started requiring any organization calling itself a martial art to use gis and the kyu/dan system. Karate did not have ranks originally. In Europe and America the colored belt system was popular, so many others decided to copy it for finantial reasons.

I could go on and on confirming that judo is indeed an art, but you can do more research if you want to find out more. I'm not trying to bash bjj, I just want people to realize what it really is and the misconceptions that have evolved. The techniques of bjj work and the brazilians have done a good job of marketing and promoting katame waza (ground techniques) especially in the U.S., but the art is judo.

Judo and BJJ are two paths to the same destination. But they are different paths. Judo is not called jujutsu for many reasons. BJJ is not called judo also for different reasons. Don't be so narrow-minded to think that they are the same.