What exactly is Brazilian about BJJ? (Flame invitation)

[Stooge]

Well, Smorra dealt with this already but...
Hey Smorra, remember that thread when bjjers were challenged to come up with a BJJ technique that didn't first exist in Judo? This was a couple years ago when every bjjer in the world was down on judo (doesn't seem to be that way anymore). I think gogoplata was one that gave us a run for our money. But people were saying that BJJers invented the triangle, the rear naked, the knee on belly pin, etc. It was funny.

I think BJJ has done a lot to keep groundwork alive. It's certainly forced me to keep working on my newaza as a judoka, and not let that part of my game slip.

I'm not slamming bjj, I love it, I'd take it if there were a nearby school.

I remember mentioning a couple sweeps and you couldn't come up with a reply. I know BJJ didn't invent subs but they did put much more emphasis on the submissions and sweeping somebody from the guard.

 

[Bubble Boy]

I remember mentioning a couple sweeps and you couldn't come up with a reply. I know BJJ didn't invent subs but they did put much more emphasis on the submissions and sweeping somebody from the guard.

You could be right, but my memory was that you weren't satisfied with my reply, not that I didn't give you one. Whatever. I still see it as a draw.
The only thing I can come up with NOW on BJJ / Judo sweeps is to point to the Kosen Video, Kashiwazaki's Book and Video (Newaza of Kashiwazaki), and a spattering of old judo books and video footage. There's honestly sweeps all over the place. Are they used in Judo competition as much and at the level of BJJ competitions? Hell no! BJJ has without a doubt cornered the market on guard sweeps. There's also little doubt that BJJ competitions allow more room for submissions than Judo tournaments. Re Judo: why give up a perfectly good pin to go for a risky submission? Re BJJ: there's no points to be gained by holding a pin for 25 seconds, so why not go for the submission? Right?

But here's an interesting observation IMO. I bought the Mundial 2004 dvd and watched it expecting to see submission after submission. What did I see? Guard passes, sweeps, and taking the back. LOT's of what would be considered stalling in Judo tournaments. What shocked me was the very limited amount of submissions. In fact...I'd almost be willing to compare the amount of submissions in most BJJ tournaments (black belt level) to Judo tournaments(black belt level) and put a little money down on there being nearly as many subs in the Judo matches as the BJJ ones. I do think there's more in BJJ tournaments than Judo tournaments, but not by very much.

This "What exactly is Brazilian about BJJ?" question has got me all flustered. It's just a great question. It's tough to come up with something definitive. I mean, Maeda did "take on all comers" matches, so the Brazilians didn't really come up with that. The guard has been around, even pulling guard, in Judo forever. There's not a single technique that can be said to have been invented by the Brazilians.

So, here's what I think the Gracies and others did. They're a time capsule. Throw the techniques and philosophy of Judo in the early 1900's into a time capsule and retain them until UFC1. The Gracies did that. Judo elsewhere in the world evolved (perhaps negatively) into primarily a throwing style, a sport. The Gracies transported what judo used to be into the modern world, and revolutionized martial arts. Not to say that a quality Judoka wouldn't have done very well in the first UFC. Because he would have. But Royce had that edge because he had taken on all comers before, of all shapes and sizes and abilities. That was the judo way along time ago, and it was retained by the Gracies. I'm not sure an Olympic Judoka would've gone down that road of hard knocks during the time period leading up to the first UFC. So the Brazilian in BJJ could perhaps be that in no other place in the world was Judo allowed to remain in a state of suspended animation as in Brazil (with the possible exception of Kyoto, Japan). Perhaps others can shed more light on this, but maybe there was something going on in Brazil, or something in it's character, or it's peoples life view, that allowed the judo of the early 1900's to retain it's purity all the way to present time. Thanks to Brazil.

 

[kimurense]

This position happens spontaneously to everyone who gets stacked and pushes off of the floor with their feet.

The point of all of this is not that Judo invented everything, but that anytime you think that someone has invented something new, chances are it has already been invented more than once.

the roleta position may exist, but he made a school out of it, he invented a whoul bunch of moves from that position

ezequiel

 

[Kforcer]

I remember mentioning a couple sweeps and you couldn't come up with a reply. I know BJJ didn't invent subs but they did put much more emphasis on the submissions and sweeping somebody from the guard.

Not entirely...judo has moved AWAY from an emphasis on the ground game...but originally, the ground-game was the primary means by which judo rose to dominance over other schools of jiu-jitsu and martial arts in Japan...Mitsu Maeda, one of judo's champions and arguably the founder of BJJ, was one such judoka with a decided ground emphasis.

 

[serima]

Helio made it more straight and simple and more effective. He also spendt more time trainig the ground game then in traditional jiu jitsu

 

[Dedicado]

Kforcer, the point you made about Judo fighters practicing an innovative approach to fighting other styles is well taken. You phrased that very nicely.
I myself am a Judo fighter, with some experience of BJJ, so please don't think that I do not give credit where credit is due.
Maybe at some time in the past, the Samurai families of Japan and their descendants fought people from many styles, way before the Gracies. But I do not believe they did this to as large a degree as the Brazilians:

The reason is that up untill the end of the Feudal period and the beginning of the Meiji Restoration, Japan was an insular nation that was closed to out-siders. Only at certain ports did the Shoguns allow foreign ships to dock and trade, and foreigners were very closely watched and forbidden from travelling around the country at-large. It is very unlikely that froeigners could get into fights with any Japanese while being so watched, the consequences for everybody who wasn't a Samurai would most likely be death.
Now the Meiji Restoration began in the 1870's, when Japan became a republic, so the only time any of the Kodakan could have participated in any challenge-matches would have been between 1871-1920's when Maeda went to Brazil. Now, even tho' this was 60 years, a very long time, no records exist in the Kodakan manuals of any challenge matches between Kodakan Judo and foreigners in either the official kodakan books, or in Jigoro Kano's books. I am not saying they didn't happen, I am saying there is no documented evidence. The earliest evidence of challenge matches being fought is from Mitsuo Maeda and from the Gracie's themselves, some of these documented fights happened during the same year, and some Gracie fights pre-date Maeda's and some of Maeda's pre-date some Gracies. My point is: these fights all happened in Brazil, around the same time, Gracies and Maeda fought different styles, boxing, wrestling, savat, capoeira, all around the same time, in nearly the same places.

 

[Smorra]

..originally, the ground-game was the primary means by which judo rose to dominance over other schools of jiu-jitsu.

From what I've read, Kano Ryu Jiu Jitsu was initially throwing centric, and in this form won against all other forms of jiu jisu except one: Matemon Tanabe's branch of Fusen Ryu jiu jisu. Tanabe's school was sparring centric like Kano's (and unlike most jiu jitsu at the time) but focused on ground grappling. After his students beat Kano's, Tanabe was subsequently hired to teach ground grappling to Kano's students. Over time, ground grappling and pulling guard came to so dominate in Judo competitions that Kano, who favored throwing and feared it was disappearing from Judo, and wanted Judo to be a popular olympic sport, changed the rules to encorage tachiwaza and reduce the amount of newaza. This effectively reverted Judo back to its roots as a throwing centric style. Even though ground grappling still existed in Judo, the rules rewarded throwing and even punished pulling guard, which over time resulted in a majority of competitors neglecting to spend a comparable amount of time on ground fighting as they did on throwing.

 

[Throatyogurt]

i love old school judo/jiujutsu/kodokan stories. those were the true juijitsukas. ive read all kinds of stuff from that period. { history major} many stories anout Kimura, Kano, O Senei, Mas, ...........
the way the Kodokan challenged EVERYBODY. Kano was hardcore in his training but he was very, how do you say, " hoty toyty". very upperclass japanese. before his desire to make it a sport, he was the one who challenged all the schools, not by storming but by tournaments. most students that lost to Kodokan students ended up joining.Kano made alot of schools broke, and had to shut down. this is another reason the Kodokan grew the way it did. Kano, while a true Jiujitsuka, thought that even though the ground techniques are extremely effective, it was not as astheticaaly pleasing as standup grappling and throws. lots of people say this about bjj, if they are not into it, they dont know whats going on, its boring. bjj is an activity that takes participation to appreciate, for the lamen.

 

[jjmuaythaiguy]

Nice discussion on the topic and I have nothing to add to what was mentioned already.

 

[KarateDo]

google.com
good site.

 

[Bmonk**]

I am impressed. I feel like I have always underestimated Judo but it

 

[Dedicado]

I agree with you bmonk, so many schools want to produce the next Olympic champ that they fail to push the envelope of what is possible. If it weren't for guys like Fedor and Parysian, Judo wouldn't even have any respect in the world of MMA, but the Judo higher-ups even consider Fedor to be good? No! They disdain him for fighting in MMA, never knowing him as a champ and be-little his achievements because they happened outside their realm of influence.
Some Judo clubs care about the ground and n-gi games, they are learning from BJJ instructors and re-equipping Judo with the weapons it used to have...but these clubs would get shut down if the sport governing body ever found out about it,

 

[Darwinist]

I agree with you bmonk, so many schools want to produce the next Olympic champ that they fail to push the envelope of what is possible. If it weren't for guys like Fedor and Parysian, Judo wouldn't even have any respect in the world of MMA, but the Judo higher-ups even consider Fedor to be good? No! They disdain him for fighting in MMA, never knowing him as a champ and be-little his achievements because they happened outside their realm of influence.
Some Judo clubs care about the ground and n-gi games, they are learning from BJJ instructors and re-equipping Judo with the weapons it used to have...but these clubs would get shut down if the sport governing body ever found out about it,

Really? Do guys like Karo, Yoshida, Fedor and Nakamura catch flack from the judo honchos for fighting MMA? How about inter-style grappling comps like ADCC? Is that considered OK?

 

[MTJJ_PuMpED]

Helio didnt really make new moves.. tho there were a few.. He just created his own style that make it eaier for a smaller guy.... Leverage changes etc.

 

[blanko]

what moves did helio or the gracies "invent"? I guess no more than Kano "invented" when he took moves from the various Jiu-jitsu schools and had it the audacity to call it a brand new style called "judo". The same kind of audacity that the gracies had to call their style "Gracie jiu-jitsu".

 

[SpartanWarrior]

Does BJJ teach all the Judo throws? I'm just curious because I was thinking about cross training in Judo for my takedowns. Thanx.

 

[Deleted member 3729]

Some Judo clubs care about the ground and n-gi games, they are learning from BJJ instructors and re-equipping Judo with the weapons it used to have...but these clubs would get shut down if the sport governing body ever found out about it,

Does that seriously happen in Canada? That's fucked up.

 

[Cannibal]

BJJ is newaza judo with moves stole from sambo and catch wrestling.

 

[Smorra]

Kano.. ..took moves from the various Jiu-jitsu schools and had the audacity to call it a brand new style called "judo". The same kind of audacity that the gracies had to call their style "Gracie jiu-jitsu".

As you may know, the 'do' at the end of Judo means 'way' versus 'jitsu' which means 'art' as in martial-art, so the name change from Kano Ryu Ju Jitsu, to Judo was meant to signify the change from a martial art (Jitsu) meant for self-defense and hand-to-hand combat, to a form of mutually benificial competition and self-development. Kano didn't invent the term Judo; there was at least one previous style of Jiu Jitsu called Judo in the mid 1800's, but Kano may not have been aware of that.
   The history of Judo given at www.judoinfo.com and other judo websites often say or imply that Kano invented the concept of removing from Jiu Jitsu the 'deadly' moves which couldn't be used in sparring, and focusing on learning through sparring. Other schools, notably Tanabe's Fusen Ryu Jiu Jitsu also did this, although Kano may have independantly thought of it. Judo can be thought of as Ju Jitsu - sparring-unsafe-moves + philosophy of mutual benifit.
   The fact that a move was first documented in Judo doesn't mean it originated in Judo. For example, Kano openly addmitted that he took Morote Gari (Biana in BJJ) from western wrestling's double-leg takedown, and Kata Guruma from its fireman's carry, etc. A majority of the non gi-dependant moves in Jiu Jitsu and thus Judo may date back to cave man days, but most of the gi-dependant moves may be more recent, and a significant portion of them may have started with Fusen Ryu and/or Judo. If that is the case, it could be due to the the change from a feudal period where weapons were common and hand to hand combat was a last resort, to a period where people would once again fight for sport as others had previously in Pancration, etc, except now with a kimono on.

 

[Dedicado]

Really? Do guys like Karo, Yoshida, Fedor and Nakamura catch flack from the judo honchos for fighting MMA? How about inter-style grappling comps like ADCC? Is that considered OK?

You bet! Most Judo do not even know what Adcc stands for, literally and figuratively, and won't fight in it.
" Adcc, ya my cousin has that, he takes ridalin..."
The club I used to train at, Kiichi-Sai, was considered a "bad club" because the guys in it could do toe-holds and had fought in BJJ. (it didn't help the club's image that the head instructor picked a fight with a policeman when he was high on oxy-cotin and weed!).
I quit training there because of that coach, but I still have a stigma attached to my name in the sport here in Yukon. Only one other Judo club enjoys having me around, the others always ask me not to try that " no rules Brazilian thing ", they can't even tell the difference between vale-tudo and bjj! As if I would ever slap on a leg lock on somebody unless I had okayed the rules with them first!
Honestly, most people think BJJ has no rules at all, and they won't fight in it, they dislike any body talking about it, and they refuse to study it. Maybe this is only because we live in a small town, very isolated from the rest of Canada, or maybe it's because they are dicks.
They also don't like the fact that I , an orange belt, have tapped out three of their black belts with chokes!