What exactly is Brazilian about BJJ? (Flame invitation)

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Great thread.

I think that the emphasis on ground fighting in a Gi is originally what made BJJ so special. TJJ, Judo, and BJJ all teach a lot of the same stuff, they just emphasize different things in training.
 
Dedicado said:
Okay, I am a simple Judoka, but I have had the privilege of working with a 4th dan BJJ'er. From his example I have learnt that: Helio and the Gracie's didn't so much invent new techniques with BJJ, even tho' they, and other Brazilians, have invented many. What they really did, was revolutionize the way of fighting.
They fought anybody and every body that ever challenged them, and they challenged all who didn't. They have fought against every style known to man, and, won or lost, they invented ways to deal with that style.
They tested out subs against everybody, they kept what worked, they chucked what didn't. this is how they revolutionized fighting.
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Actually, thats not new at all. In fact, thats exactly what judo did when it came to prominence in Japan. And one of its champions in such challenges, was Mitsu Maeda. Its also the story of catch-as-catch-can in large part--taking all challenges, using what works, etc.
 
Bubble Boy said:
Smorra, if you were a chick I'd dump my wife and ask for your hand in marriage, sight unseen. Your posts are pure quality.

On topic: there are no techniques in BJJ that didn't first exist in Judo, and previous to that Japanese Jujitsu (JJJ). The lineage is clearly, and without any doubt: JJJ --> Judo --> BJJ. BJJ didn't leap frog over Judo from JJJ. Maeda was a Kodokan Judo guy, and he taught Carlos. So, historically speaking, and in an attempt to directly answer your question Groundshark, all the techniques and moves came from Japan as far as the connection to Carlos is concerned.

That said: I think the translation of these "judo" techniques to NHB fighting is what makes BJJ unique from the other styles. Fighting to the finish is a lot different than fighting for points. BJJ tournament rules are fairly recent aren't they? Previous to these rules didn't most Gracies more or less take on any comers? The things that develop from fighting NHB are different than what develop from fighting to score points, which is where Judo was comng from. In the meantime the brazilians were taking on anybody to submission. The guard (although common in some judo schools past and present, especially Kosen Judo in Kyoto) was really polished and emphasized by the brazilians, because it was sooo safe in their challenge matches. In judo matches you pull guard you get penalized. You hold guard you get stood up immediately.

So. Even though the guard is not a brazilian invention, I think they deserve credit for really putting it to ingenius use, and polishing it up a bit. Pulling guard in a one on one fight, especially back then, was absolutely brilliant.
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Well, I think you might be making the mistake of taking judo as it has DEVELOPED overtime for judo as it once was...as far as the guard, its always been an integral part of judo....and guard-pulling ONLY became penalized later on, in order to differentiate it from BJJ and to make sure that matches didn't just become BJJ matches. If you took the judo that Maeda and Kimura practiced, you'd see the allowance of many techniques that are now banned from the sport...at one time, even leg-locks were allowable in judo. The house-cleaning of various techniques is just what happens when you want a sport to become an international, househould name.
 
Mirada said:
The moves are the same in grappling "styles" the world over.

The difference is in how you train.
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Pretty much true.
 
Good thread.

What differentiates BJJ is it's approach to and philiosophy of combat not it's techniques. Philosophy and approach are the what distinguish martial arts from each other. What people see though are the techniques and that is why a lot of people tend to characterise a martial art by the techniques it uses. Similar approaches will require similar tactics and hence similar techniques. Confusion over what is at the essence of an MA is why you'll often see noobs accusing people of "stealing" techniques.
 
Okay I gotta ask this. Did the omoplata exist in Judo? Did any of you see that move or hear about it in a Judo manual? Cause this one I
 
VagabondMusashi said:
Okay I gotta ask this. Did the omoplata exist in Judo? Did any of you see that move or hear about it in a Judo manual? Cause this one I
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Groundshark said:
I searched through all the threads I want to search through. What specific moves came from Helio or any of the Gracies that wasnt Japanese?
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EXACTLY! The Brazillian part of it comes from the "sport" aspect of jiu-jitsu, the matches. That never existed in Japan, and that is why Judo's Kano's team of judoka creamed the jiu-jitsu challengers in the famous 1880s match. Same thing. They train for real matches.

BJJ is 66% japanese, and 33% Brazilian. The Brazilians took BJJ to the next level though.
 
kimurense said:
many brazillians invented several techniques, eg:
shembri - gogoplata
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There were pictures posted on this board a while ago of this shin choke being done in Sambo.
nova uni
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i believe that it has a lot to do with the brazilian mentality

here usually the masters don't worry about the author of the moves, it's just incorporated

so we have bjj guys who crosstrain in aikido (macaco trained sometime in it)
muay thai fighters who jump and do spinning kicks (chute boxe)

tkd guys doing shin kicks (lucio aurelio)

kung fu guys doing armbars (giudice)
shotokan guys who use hooks (the machida brothers)


it has a lot to do with the mentality

for example , go and ask a brazilian which religion is his

he probably will say catholic, but he at the same time can believe in reincarnation, go to protestant lectures, ask fo protection of some orix
 
Smorra said:
The triangle did not exist in BJJ until it was 'invented' by one of one of Rolls Gracie's students in 1974! The same move, Sankaku Jime (literally triangle choke) existed in Judo and before that, in Fusen Ryu Jiu Jitsu since before 1900.
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I think (not 100/100 sure) that the triangle was even known by the ancient egyptians. I think i read somewhere that hieroglyphs showed soldier or fighters using this perticular move in combat.
 
VagabondMusashi said:
Okay I gotta ask this. Did the omoplata exist in Judo? Did any of you see that move or hear about it in a Judo manual? Cause this one I
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Smorra said:
...nearly every lapel choke I've seen in BJJ competitions are official named chokes in judo. Two I haven't seen specifically in judo are one where you choke with your own gi wrapped around their neck such as from sidemount, and one where you pull their jacket out and behind their back to their neck to control while choking. However, I wouldn't be surprised if these did exist in Judo, because you can see on film of kosen judo that they were adanced at using their and the other person's gi. One thing they did that was brilliant, and which I haven't even seen in BJJ, is to use the other guy's gi to tie up his far side arm before going for the near side armbar or kimura, so he woudn't be able to defend it
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Kashiwazaki demonstrates both your chokes mentioned above (choke with your own jacket, and choke with the opponents jacket bottom) in his "Shimewaza" book. He calls the first one Suso Jime, or Skirt Strangle. It's on page 90-91. He calls the second one (using opponents jacket bottom) a version of Katajuji Jime and demonstrates it on page 45. Also, "Best Judo" has a few using own gi skirt chokes in it.
BTW, Yoshida attempted an "own gi skirt" choke against Frye in their match. Remember that anyone? He was inches from sinking it.

I also don't get why BJJ hasn't adopted the tie up the opponents far hand with their gi thing yet. Neal Adams demonstrates it quite a bit in his videos. I am floored also that I haven't seen this in gi bjj yet. It's bound to show up soon.
 
Isnt the gogoplata called "kagato jime" in judo?
 
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