What exactly is Brazilian about BJJ? (Flame invitation)

[Dedicado]

Does that seriously happen in Canada? That's fucked up.

For insurance purposes, all Judo Sensei need to be sanctioned by the province or territory (what we call a 'state' here) governing body. Judo Sensei may only teach techniques approved by the Kodakan, and may be barred from coaching if they are caught teaching submissions that aren't insured, especially if somebody gets injured and decides to sue. The insurance won't cover: leg locks, injuries from these submissions, or unlicensed techniques resulting in an injury; consequently most clubs won't touch them. My club, Ne-Waza Defensive Arts, gets around this rule by training out-side of class time. I do all my leg-lock stuff when the sensei isn't there, that way the club cannot be held responsible. I do No-Gi with my Sensi, so it musn't be illegal for him to do so, but no other clubs do this here.

 

[Deleted member 3729]

BJJ is newaza judo with moves stole from sambo and catch wrestling.

See my earlier post

For insurance purposes, all Judo Sensei need to be sanctioned by the province or territory (what we call a 'state' here) governing body. Judo Sensei may only teach techniques approved by the Kodakan, and may be barred from coaching if they are caught teaching submissions that aren't insured, especially if somebody gets injured and decides to sue. The insurance won't cover: leg locks, injuries from these submissions, or unlicensed techniques resulting in an injury; consequently most clubs won't touch them. My club, Ne-Waza Defensive Arts, gets around this rule by training out-side of class time. I do all my leg-lock stuff when the sensei isn't there, that way the club cannot be held responsible. I do No-Gi with my Sensi, so it musn't be illegal for him to do so, but no other clubs do this here.

Ridiculously stupid, why don't they just pay the extra insurance. Glad i don't live there.............

 

[Dedicado]

Maybe they can, but alot of clubs up here are "non-profit", so they don't make very much money. I agree with you, it's a shitty situation. That's why I cross train at a BJJ school down south.

 

[physicaltherapy]

Bravo. This is one of the most organized, balanced and well-informed posts I

 

[S.D.Force]

Hey "physical therapy"....are you a physical therapis????....couldn't tell from your profile. I'm a Physical therapist here in San Diego, Ca.

 

[Calibur]

What is BJJ?

according to Renzo Gracie, their is a combination of 4 things that make BJJ BJJ.


1. They took out the dangerous moves and only allow moves that can be done on a willing resisting power which gives him an opportunity to submit via an understood signal.

2. BJJ encourages participates to fight on the ground because size difference can be negated easier lying down as opposed to standing up.

3. BJJ has a positional Heiarchy. For example, guard is better than half guard. mount is better than guard, back mount is better than full mount etc. Most grappling arts dont have an actual heirchy of pins. In most grappling arts, if the person cant move the person cant move. Hence, Sidepins, Kesa Gatame, and a lot of other moves are viable in Judo, Sambo etc, but not so much in BJJ because of.......

4. The point system. BJJ uses a very specific point system to reward pins and attacks. If you are not training with the understanding of points, than its probably not pure BJJ.

I didnt think it was a difficult question.

People have been around for thousands of years. We have always had 2 arms and 2 legs and we have always engaged in warfare with each other. Its pretty stupid/arrogant to think that one person has come up with a move that billions upon billions of people in the past and present have failed to come up with at one time.

There really isnt a BJJ technique. Or even a Jiu Jitsu technicue. Just a strategy on how a grappling technique is applied.

 

[physicaltherapy]

Hey "physical therapy"....are you a physical therapis????....couldn't tell from your profile. I'm a Physical therapist here in San Diego, Ca.

Yeah I am...on the east coast in NY. PM me

 

[ratman201]

Bravo. This is one of the most organized, balanced and well-informed posts I

 

[Alzi_]

ttt

After reading all 4 pages from this thread, the collective answer seems to be that Helio Gracie did not invent any moves that didn't already exist in old-school Judo. He did not invent the guard and had never seen a kimura until he was submitted with one. Nor was he even acquainted with the triangle choke which was discovered in a judo manual by a student of Rolls. So Helio's jiu-jitsu then was quite primitive and crude. What exactly then did Helio contribute to jiu-jitsu that gave it a Brazilian flavor? The answer is the application of leverage to existing jiu-jitsu moves to make them more reliant on technique rather than strength. And its this aspect of BJJ that distinguishes it from other grappling arts.

 

[Rinksterk**]

I think the MAIN difference between Judo and BJJ is the skill of the people practicing it. You can say you can do BJJ because you did a lot of newaza but the thing is it might be hard to find a judo guy with newaza good enough to handle a BJJ black belt. Sure they exist but not abundant. Same thing with BJJ guys who want to work on throws. They can work on throws in BJJ class all day, but get owned against a Judo who all he does is work on throws.

BJJ: Has more people who are great on the ground
Judo: Has more people who are great with throws

So in order for a Judo guy to really tighten his ground skills, it might be better for him to train at a BJJ school, unless he knows a Judo guy with a real good ground game.

 

[VampireMonk]

how much did Count Koma contribute to GJJ?

he was doing semi NHB challenge matches.
he had the attitude the skill, the same philosophy
as GJJ.

imagine also if Count Koma was a ninjitsu guy,
would it be called
Gracie Ninjitsu or
Brazilian Ninjitsu?

 

[Thalion]

First, a complete website on judo groundwork is this

http://www.meutatame.com.br/judo.htm

There are most of the technique used in judo. Lock, Choke, guard pass, pin and all the defence from each move.

Kansetsu waza = lock http://www.meutatame.com.br/chaves.htm
defence http://www.meutatame.com.br/saidas_de_chaves.htm

Shime waza = choke http://www.meutatame.com.br/estrangulamento.htm
defence http://www.meutatame.com.br/saidas_de_estrangulamentos.htm

Osaekomi waza = pin http://www.meutatame.com.br/imobilizacoes.htm
defence http://www.meutatame.com.br/saida_de_imobilizacoes.htm



Also a good book is Vital Judo of Isao Okano


In Judo there are many technique, Each technique can be used from different position, for examples:

Nami = standard
Yoko = side
Gyaku = reverse and so on


This are some Judo Technique with each brazilian name

Kagato Jime - gogoplata
Sode Guruma jime - ezequiel choke
Nami/Kata/Gyaku/Okuri eri jime - Collar Choke
Hadaka jime - Rear naked choke
Sankaku jime - Triangle
Jujigatame - Armbar
Waki gatame - Armlock
Ude gatame - Arm lock
Hiza Gatame - Armlok made with leg
Ude garame - Americana
Gyaku Ude Garame - Kimura
Sankaku Garame - Omoplata
Ashi Garami - Hip/leg Lock


I 've seen in kosen judo video also the spider guard (to the bicep compression) , De la riva guard, butterfly guard and these Technique exist in judo, but aren't ofter trained. For Judo rules spider guard don't work well, cause there isn't so much time to used in competition.
Also pass the guard is not trained much, just because 90% of time after a throw u are in side mount or mount so it's studied to get a lock a pin or a choke from that position and how to get out from that positions.

 

[Alzi_]

how much did Count Koma contribute to GJJ?

he was doing semi NHB challenge matches.
he had the attitude the skill, the same philosophy
as GJJ.

imagine also if Count Koma was a ninjitsu guy,
would it be called
Gracie Ninjitsu or
Brazilian Ninjitsu?

Carlos Gracie is said to have trained with Maeda for as little as one year or at most four years. And even this was on and off since Maeda was constantly traveling. He opened the first Gracie Academy while he was still learning jiu-jitsu. In such a short time, Carlos could only have learned the basics of jiu-jitsu/judo and using that as a baseline, him and his brothers greatly refined and expanded the art. Still it did not resemble the BJJ we know and love today. Important pieces such as the triangle, omoplata, certain keylocks, and sophisticated guard passes were missing. Eventually as more people began practising this new jiu-jitsu the missing pieces came into place and the sport evolved into what it has become today.

BTW, I heard there is a dojo in Brazil that still practises the original Maeda brand of jiu-jitsu. Anyone have any info about this?

 

[chokingvictim]

According to the Gracies, what Maeda taught was good, but many techniques were not as useful for smaller guys, and they worked well for Maeda because he was so big and strong.
Helio was able to learn which techniques work for smaller guys. He disregarded the techniques that required you to be bigger than your opponent, and that is why Gracie Jiu-Jitsu was unique and different from the style of judo or japanese jiu-jitsu or any other style out there.

 

[Rinksterk**]

According to the Gracies, what Maeda taught was good, but many techniques were not as useful for smaller guys, and they worked well for Maeda because he was so big and strong.
Helio was able to learn which techniques work for smaller guys. He disregarded the techniques that required you to be bigger than your opponent, and that is why Gracie Jiu-Jitsu was unique and different from the style of judo or japanese jiu-jitsu or any other style out there.

Nah, I don't know about that. The whole point of judo was to be able to overcome an opponent who is stronger and bigger than you. Well, maybe Helio improved or "reinvented" moves so it would work for smaller guys because most his moves he learned were from Maeda.

 

[Ryo]

Dude Maeda was like 5 foot 6 and 150 something pounds. I don't see how he could possibly be overpowering too many people.

 

[chokingvictim]

Maybe I read wrong. Maybe it was Helio's brothers that were using techniques that only worked if you were pretty strong, and Helio started figuring out which ones work for smaller guys.

 

[Darwinist]

Nah, I don't know about that. The whole point of judo was to be able to overcome an opponent who is stronger and bigger than you. Well, maybe Helio improved or "reinvented" moves so it would work for smaller guys because most his moves he learned were from Maeda.

Exactly. The notion of leverage overcoming strength and weight is at the heart of Judo and many traditional Jiu-Jitsu style.

Too bad that many Judokas that totally 100% grasp that fact in standup grappling seem to forget that it also applies on the ground.

IMO the only thing that caused any kind of divergence between Judo and BJJ is the rules. They developed along diffrent paths not due to diffrent techniques and philosophies but just because they rules of the game were diffrent. Nothing more than that.

 

[Q mystic]

Exactly. The notion of leverage overcoming strength and weight is at the heart of Judo and many traditional Jiu-Jitsu style.

Too bad that many Judokas that totally 100% grasp that fact in standup grappling seem to forget that it also applies on the ground.

IMO the only thing that caused any kind of divergence between Judo and BJJ is the rules. They developed along diffrent paths not due to diffrent techniques and philosophies but just because they rules of the game were diffrent. Nothing more than that.

End of thread

 

[Thalion]

Helio didn't learn the stand up part of judo just because it was more difficult to learn than ground work part
He didn't know how to throw using "technique" instead of strenght so he didn't use it and he work only on ne waza .

This is a part of an article about Sensei Mehdi

http://www.geocities.com/global_training_report/mehdi.htm

Carlos, Helio, Robson, Carlson, and the other instructors at the academy emphasized ground fighting because, they said, it was more effective and more realistic. In a street fight or self-defense situation, four things could be expected. First, the attacker would probably be bigger. Second, he would be attacking. Third, whoever was getting hit would probably clinch to avoid getting hit some more. And fourth, sooner or later, one or both people would fall down. The Gracie system was predicated on these four assumptions.

Mehdi’s interpretation was different. The Gracies emphasized ground fighting because they "don't know how to throw". Why get your clothes dirty if you don’t have to, Mehdi says?

Mehdi's view was that a good throw can make ground fighting unnecessary. And even if the fight goes on, you are going to be in a much better position after dropping or slamming your opponent onto the ground from five feet up in the air, no matter how you look at it. Ukemi or no ukemi, it hurts.

A correctly executed throw is also beautiful to behold, Mehdi believed, whereas holding someone between your legs for the entire fight or match, while ok for a woman in a street survival situation, is unbecoming of a trained martial artist. Romero Jacare and Mehdi’s former students Sylvio Behring and Rickson Gracie, believe Mehdi has a point.

However, when two fighters are evenly matched and the rules permit them to stay in the guard, it's inevitable that this will happen. It's a problem with the rules, or the officiating, rather than the techniques, Sylvio says. Mehdi agrees entirely. It’s the rules that make jiu-jitsu what it is and what it shouldn’t be. That’s precisely what’s wrong with it. That’s the point.

It wasn’t only the Gracie’s emphasis on ground fighting Mehdi didn’t care for, it was the Gracies themselves. "Fighting and lying. I don't like. Judo should make a better person, not someone who fights in the street". He mentions as an example of Gracie mendacity the time Helio announced that a French judo "champion" was learning from him. “He was just a beginner, not a champion”, Mehdi says.