What exactly is Brazilian about BJJ? (Flame invitation)

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Groundshark, Aug 8, 2005.

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  1. Groundshark

    Groundshark Orange Belt

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    I searched through all the threads I want to search through. What specific moves came from Helio or any of the Gracies that wasnt Japanese?
     
  2. ARIS

    ARIS Brown Belt

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    Secret killer moves :icon_twis
     
  3. Groundshark

    Groundshark Orange Belt

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    YES! I KNEW IT!!
     
  4. Dedicado

    Dedicado Machetero

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    Okay, I am a simple Judoka, but I have had the privilege of working with a 4th dan BJJ'er. From his example I have learnt that: Helio and the Gracie's didn't so much invent new techniques with BJJ, even tho' they, and other Brazilians, have invented many. What they really did, was revolutionize the way of fighting.
    They fought anybody and every body that ever challenged them, and they challenged all who didn't. They have fought against every style known to man, and, won or lost, they invented ways to deal with that style.
    They tested out subs against everybody, they kept what worked, they chucked what didn't. this is how they revolutionized fighting.
     
  5. Smorra

    Smorra Blue Belt

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    It seems to me that Helio may be both not telling the truth and not lying, when he talks about inventing a lot of BJJ. He may have independantly reinvented some of the moves he never learned. The accounts of how long Meada taught Carlos Gracie range from a year to at most four years. I suspect it was closer to one year, because Helio, who had been taught by Carlos, had never seen a 'kimura' until Kimura did an Ude Garami to him (according to the book, The Gracie Way.) The triangle did not exist in BJJ until it was 'invented' by one of one of Rolls Gracie's students in 1974! The same move, Sankaku Jime (literally triangle choke) existed in Judo and before that, in Fusen Ryu Jiu Jitsu since before 1900.
       It seems to me that most of what is different in BJJ is extremely recent, like in the last 10 years, and even then, no-one knows if it didn't exist previously but was just undocumented. For example you can see film of Kosen Judo guys doing the 'De La Riva' guard before Ricardo De La Riva was born. I suspect that a majority of all moves have been reinvented over and again since at least 4000 years ago in Egypt, where there are paintings in the Benni Hassan tomb of people doing what looks like submission wrestling- including one picture that looks like a toe hold.
       I have even 'invented' a few moves that I have shown to people, and no-one had ever seen them before, yet who knows who may have already come up with them in the past but kept them secret.
     
  6. FiveByFive

    FiveByFive White Belt

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    For someone inviting flames, you don't sound like a troll.

    They probably preserved the ground fighting aspect of Judo (whereas the latter art is now not so focused on it) and incorporated techniques too, like from Catch Wrestling (a few footlocks here and there...the americana looks like something from Catch-As-Catch-Can).

    Oh and Count K was also a catch wrestler, so he might have thrown "other" moves in there too. Interesting theory, no?

    /\/\ I heard from some Judo guy on the forum that the triangle choke was from a Judo manual.

    \/\/ That was used in "ground" Judo (before Kano grew displeased with it), can anyone please tell me if it is still used? I do Judo and BJJ...but I've done very little of the former...

    We need a grappling history thread...if we already have one then I am blind.
     
  7. Envious

    Envious Purple Belt

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    I thought the addition of "the guard" is what Helio added. Being able to control your opponent on the ground using your legs.
     
  8. Dedicado

    Dedicado Machetero

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    Oh yeah, I also would like to add:

    Re: What is BJJ all about?

    Bjj is about Grappling, it's about gi and no-gi, it's about takedowns and the ground game. It's about subbing people and fighting hard. BJJ is a brotherhood of atheletes and fighters that wear the Gi and choose to scrap all out without ever hitting each other. BJJ is a fighting style that gives a small man a reasonable chance against a much bigger one, and a method of self-defense. BJJ places emphasis on these values: respect, learning, honor, courage, and getting physically, mentally,emotionaly and spiritually stronger. Oh yeah, and having fun too. Peace!
     
  9. Groundshark

    Groundshark Orange Belt

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    Good info! Thanks everyone!
     
  10. colinm

    colinm Brown Belt

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    looking at it from the most practical standpoint, bjj is brazilian jiu jitsu...not a judo variant or modified tjj... because a bjj academy is the only place that you can now go to learn bjj moves how a bjj fighter would apply them. that sounds stupid so let me explain:

    bjj was derived directly from judo, so dont think im not giving credit, but:
    1. you will not learn to fight like bustamante or nog bros (or any other submission oriented fighter who is really comfortable and good off their back) at a judo, sambo, catch wrestling, greco, submission wrestling, or any other kind of grappling academy.
    2. judo ground game now is a lot different now - fuck however many years ago it spread to brazil. talking about now - decendents and students of the gracies are the onlly ones who will teach you bjj style fighting.
    3. the main difference between other grapplers and bjjers, as far as ive noticed, is attention to detail on the ground. for example, ill spend an hour or more just practicing an entire sequence of counters to when the guy on the bottom gets the underhook in half guard and is going to my back. also an emphasis on flowing from one technique to the other. a lot of the judo guys ive rolled with already know all the basic shit like armbars and triangles, judo dont have a good transitions between them. i am sure it is the other way around for other arts and judo guys would consider my throws very amateurish, even tho theyre good for bjj purposes.

    what im trying to say is that the roots of bjj can be debated. how much helio actually invented, or rediscovered, we really dont know and i personally couldnt give less of a shit. all i know is that if you train judo, sambo, wrestling, and bjj the things that make bjj "brazilian" jiu jitsu will be very clear after a single training session. the proof is in the pudding as they say.
     
  11. JABobo3

    JABobo3 Orange Belt

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    I feel they just revolutionized the training. You spar for most of the class on resisting opponents. Not in TJJ or Judo on the ground methinks.
     
  12. VagabondMusashi

    VagabondMusashi Banned Banned

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    If you wanna put it that way, how japanese is jiu jitsu if it comes from vajramushti?
    thought so. Nobody invents anything, they rediscover it, and since Maeda only taught Carlos for 2-4 years, they rediscovered a lot.
    Also, they refined it by using it, testing it, and applying it on the streets. That gives a twist on what is emphasized. Proof? Royce Gracie vs. Remco Pardoel on UFC 2 proves anything you want. Remco,European Jiu Jitsu Champion, about 50kg heavier, was choked into submission.
     
  13. Mirada

    Mirada Brown Belt

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    The moves are the same in grappling "styles" the world over.

    The difference is in how you train.
     
  14. Darwinist

    Darwinist Super Simian

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    Bravo. This is one of the most organized, balanced and well-informed posts I
     
  15. possenti

    possenti I knew all the rules-but the rules did not know me

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    WOW! I'm calling Webster's to have them publish this in their next dictionary.
     
  16. colinm

    colinm Brown Belt

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  17. Smorra

    Smorra Blue Belt

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    I used to think this was proof of the difference also, but Remco's champion status was not highly regarded- its like if I win at the NAGA World Championship, am I the World Jiu Jitsu Champion, or the champion of the guys mostly from near-by who showed up? It appeared in that fight that Remco had never even seen a 'clock choke' (Okuri Eri Jime/Sliding Collar Choke) which is relatively common in Judo ground-fighting (because people turtle so much.)
       One thing that has to be kept in mind is that the early UFCs were organized by Rorion and designed promote Gracie Jiu Jitsu. It was an invitation only event. I've read that Art Davie (the promoter at the time) wanted to get Alexander Karelin to compete in it, but Rorion didn't because in an earlier challenge match it had taken Rickson over 20 minutes to sub Mark Schultz, who was also an olympic calibre wrestler, but not as accomplished as Karelin. They also didn't invite any Judo ground-grappling specialists like Mike Swain to compete. This is not to say that the Judo ground guys would have neccessarily won, but the matches would have at least been more competitive (see Royce v. Yoshida) and they might have won, as Kimura and "Ezekial" had won in past challenges (resulting in namesake moves being added to BJJ.)
       Since the rule changes in judo over sixty years ago, Ground grappling has been marginalized in a lot of Judo clubs and most of the Judo guys I've persionally grappled with (except Bighead) were as mediocre on the ground as I am at throws, which is probably why so many people think that BJJ players invented everything.
     
  18. Bmonk**

    Bmonk** Guest

    It's not that they invented new moves, they simply made grappling less restricted than it was before.

    Wrestling, Judo and Sambo are kindof restricted on the ground due to rules added by the olympics and other organizations.

    BJJ usually allows you to be able to win via any submission you want.
     
  19. Bubble Boy

    Bubble Boy Black Belt

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    Smorra, if you were a chick I'd dump my wife and ask for your hand in marriage, sight unseen. Your posts are pure quality.

    On topic: there are no techniques in BJJ that didn't first exist in Judo, and previous to that Japanese Jujitsu (JJJ). The lineage is clearly, and without any doubt: JJJ --> Judo --> BJJ. BJJ didn't leap frog over Judo from JJJ. Maeda was a Kodokan Judo guy, and he taught Carlos. So, historically speaking, and in an attempt to directly answer your question Groundshark, all the techniques and moves came from Japan as far as the connection to Carlos is concerned.

    That said: I think the translation of these "judo" techniques to NHB fighting is what makes BJJ unique from the other styles. Fighting to the finish is a lot different than fighting for points. BJJ tournament rules are fairly recent aren't they? Previous to these rules didn't most Gracies more or less take on any comers? The things that develop from fighting NHB are different than what develop from fighting to score points, which is where Judo was comng from. In the meantime the brazilians were taking on anybody to submission. The guard (although common in some judo schools past and present, especially Kosen Judo in Kyoto) was really polished and emphasized by the brazilians, because it was sooo safe in their challenge matches. In judo matches you pull guard you get penalized. You hold guard you get stood up immediately.

    So. Even though the guard is not a brazilian invention, I think they deserve credit for really putting it to ingenius use, and polishing it up a bit. Pulling guard in a one on one fight, especially back then, was absolutely brilliant.
     
  20. flyingknee16

    flyingknee16 Brown Belt

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    Yes, definitely. I wouild to add it's also the philosophy of how you apply your moves that also makes a difference in the grappling arts.
     
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