War Room Lounge V77: Anthony Johnson is not a good unit of measure

[Andy Capp]

Sure. Charters are perfect, though, because they're free and often of legitimately higher quality.

So why aren't all schools following the charter model? Is this some variation on the argument about equality of ability vs equality of opportunity? I'm genuinely interested in educating myself on this topic. I have no kids and almost certainly never will, therefore the only skin I have in the game is as a member of the same society as the affected individuals, but I cop to having some preconceptions about the issue that I want to confirm or correct. I must disclaim that I have only limited understanding of what the charter model is even as I refer to it above, so I invite you to explain why its principles cannot be more broadly applied to the education system as a whole and thus void complaints about it at a stroke.

In much the same way that we can see that kids who are malnourished do poorer in school so we should feed them, I think we ought to be able to see that they should be allowed to attend all the same schools as rich people regardless of ability to pay. That's a highly idealized notion, of course, I admit that. But I think any time you introduce a profit motive in a public service like education, you introduce an incentive to game the system, so I don't get your objection to eliminating for-profit schooling entirely, although I trust you have a good reason.

 

[Tycho- Taylor's Version]

Whatever is happening within the conservative ranks, is merely a response to that, as usual.

 

[Fawlty]

Future president

Oh god he's from Puyallup no more explanation needed. It's the front yard Camaro graveyard of America.

 

[Rational Poster]

@Ruprecht

Who keeps covering @KeepItRealist tracks?

I reported a post yesterday where he was the defending a white nationalist terrorist.. again. Then this morning it turns out the offending post was removed and he didn't even get carded.

Meanwhile I get carded for like.. using the C word in a thread about the C word... and derailing threads that belong in the dump. Just seems like modding priorities are bit off.

 

[Jack V Savage]

So why aren't all schools following the charter model?

An organization has to form it. We can't will them into existence, but we can help with funding them.

Is this some variation on the argument about equality of ability vs equality of opportunity?

I don't think so. I see a good education as something that is beneficial in itself, but it also can lead to more concrete results.

I'm genuinely interested in educating myself on this topic.

Good luck! Seriously, there is a huge amount of bullshit on both sides of it so be very careful as you do your research.

I have no kids and almost certainly never will, therefore the only skin I have in the game is as a member of the same society as the affected individuals, but I cop to having some preconceptions about the issue that I want to confirm or correct. I must disclaim that I have only limited understanding of what the charter model is even as I refer to it above, so I invite you to explain why its principles cannot be more broadly applied to the education system as a whole and thus void complaints about it at a stroke.

So just at the basic level, they are publicly funded independent (meaning they aren't gov't-run, though the gov't oversees them) schools founded under a charter (which establishes their mission and approach and other aspects of the school). So there isn't a single model that applies to them all, but many of them do appear to be delivering results even after adjusting for a lot of the illusions in that kind of thing (and remember, they're free so that's not a factor, and they can't select students based on test scores or past academic performance--if there are more applicants than slots, they use lotteries). Many suck, too, of course. But the overall approach is very promising because there is a kind of market that can drive improvement.

In much the same way that we can see that kids who are malnourished do poorer in school so we should feed them, I think we ought to be able to see that they should be allowed to attend all the same schools as rich people regardless of ability to pay. That's a highly idealized notion, of course, I admit that. But I think any time you introduce a profit motive in a public service like education, you introduce an incentive to game the system, so I don't get your objection to eliminating for-profit schooling entirely, although I trust you have a good reason.

Charter schools are like that.

 

[Sketch]

@Ruprecht

Who keeps covering @KeepItRealist tracks?

I reported a post yesterday where he was the defending a white nationalist terrorist.. again. Then this morning it turns out the offending post was removed and he didn't even get carded.

Meanwhile I get carded for like.. using the C word in a thread about the C word... and derailing threads that belong in the dump. Just seems like modding priorities are bit off.

Stop whining snitch

 

[Prokofievian]

Sure. Charters are perfect, though, because they're free and often of legitimately higher quality.

I did a little research, and there are precisely 13 charter schools in Canada, all in Alberta. No other province has legalized them. The rules surrounding charters in Alberta are that there can only be 15 at any one time, they are strictly non-profit, their teachers must all be accredited, and the curriculum standardized. These seem awfully similar to Warren's proposed guidelines.

What don't you like about these?

 

[Trotsky]

Oh god he's from Puyallup no more explanation needed. It's the front yard Camaro graveyard of America.

But wait

 

[Rational Poster]

Stop whining snitch

I just want equal treatment is all.

I get carded for jay walking meanwhile other posters are running red lights and hitting pedestrians on purpose.

 

[trident]

Oh god he's from Puyallup no more explanation needed. It's the front yard Camaro graveyard of America.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who noticed the misspelled words there

 

[Sketch]

I just want equal treatment is all.

I get carded for jay walking meanwhile other posters are running red lights and hitting pedestrians on purpose.

Then make some higher up connections , it’s the same in real life. You get treated based on mainly who you know.

 

[trident]

But wait

Hmmm if the IRS and a business were the exact same entity he would be 100% correct, which, in reality makes him 100% dumb as shit

 

[Jack V Savage]

I did a little research, and there are precisely 13 charter schools in Canada, all in Alberta. No other province has legalized them. The rules surrounding charters in Alberta are that there can only be 15 at any one time, they are strictly non-profit, their teachers must all be accredited, and the curriculum standardized. These seem awfully similar to Warren's proposed guidelines.

What don't you like about these?

My objection is to her saying that we must stop the privatization of public schools (which I read as an objection to charter schools) and to, more concretely, ending the federal funding for the expansion of charter schools. I don't have a problem with making them non-profit (overwhelmingly, most are anyway, even though for-profit charters are not banned, and for-profit charters tend to perform worse anyway) or with requiring teacher accreditation.

 

[Trotsky]

@Ruprecht

Who keeps covering @KeepItRealist tracks?

I reported a post yesterday where he was the defending a white nationalist terrorist.. again. Then this morning it turns out the offending post was removed and he didn't even get carded.

Meanwhile I get carded for like.. using the C word in a thread about the C word... and derailing threads that belong in the dump. Just seems like modding priorities are bit off.

It seems as though you already know who it is.

 

[PolishHeadlock2]

I didn't say anything about funding, or the lack thereof. Let's say you have 3 schools all funded equally, but one is full of poor people, one is full of rich people and one where there is broad diversity of social class. The poor people in the school on their own will have the poorest outcomes statistically regardless of the equality in funding.

My opinion is that the kids of families that are better off would be better off in the mixed school also FWIW, but that could be a mistaken recollection or my personal bias against private schools and the like talking, i.e. if it weren't for the disparate outcomes I mentioned, there might be nothing obviously wrong with sending your kid to a better school if you can afford it, but I still wouldn't like it.

ok

 

[Prokofievian]

My objection is to her saying that we must stop the privatization of public schools (which I read as an objection to charter schools) and to, more concretely, ending the federal funding for the expansion of charter schools. I don't have a problem with making them non-profit (overwhelmingly, most are anyway, even though for-profit charters are not banned, and for-profit charters tend to perform worse anyway) or with requiring teacher accreditation.

That's weird to me. Stopping the privatization of public schools is like music to my ears. Privatizing public education sounds like something Maxime Bernier would propose and call ''innovation,'' and subsequently get voted out of the house of commons for.

As close as I can feel to Americans when I visit, especially coming from Europe, I have to say

 

[Andy Capp]

An organization has to form it. We can't will them into existence, but we can help with funding them.



I don't think so. I see a good education as something that is beneficial in itself, but it also can lead to more concrete results.



Good luck! Seriously, there is a huge amount of bullshit on both sides of it so be very careful as you do your research.



So just at the basic level, they are publicly funded independent (meaning they aren't gov't-run, though the gov't oversees them) schools founded under a charter (which establishes their mission and approach and other aspects of the school). So there isn't a single model that applies to them all, but many of them do appear to be delivering results even after adjusting for a lot of the illusions in that kind of thing (and remember, they're free so that's not a factor, and they can't select students based on test scores or past academic performance--if there are more applicants than slots, they use lotteries). Many suck, too, of course. But the overall approach is very promising because there is a kind of market that can drive improvement.



Charter schools are like that.

OK, I misspoke. When I said, "I'm genuinely interested in educating myself on this topic," I really meant I would love it if you were to educate me on this topic. And I'm still not getting what aspects of this model can't be applied to all schools. Surely, as with any business, there is someone tracking data to see what works and what doesn't, isn't there?

Anyway, to me it seems like a lot of issues with the education system in the US could be resolved by saying, "Fuck states' rights. We're imposing national standards as well as institutional oversight to provide quality assurance." Idealistic, I know, but I can afford to be idealistic.

You said, "I don't think so. I see a good education as something that is beneficial in itself, but it also can lead to more concrete results." But you didn't explain where your support for for-profit schools ties into that belief, noting that your objection to Warren's tweet was based upon the presumption she said she wanted to ban all of them, not just charters.

 

[Rational Poster]

Then make some higher up connections , it’s the same in real life. You get treated based on mainly who you know.

I got unbanned and now that mod who did it is banned.

I wasn't even green when that happened.

 

[Sketch]

I got unbanned and now that mod who did it is banned.

I wasn't even green when that happened.

I suggest you don’t make light of that.

 

[Andy Capp]

It seems as though you already know who it is.

PM me if you have a theory.

I don't usually go along with any criticisms of how the mods do their already too difficult jobs, and it wouldn't be the first time a plausible-sounding accusation turned out to be, to put it politely, lacking foundation. But after the situation with RR, and the suspicious resurfacing of many old inactive accounts just recently--no offense to any genuinely just back because reasons, it really is an unusual number--I'm a little tired of being totally out of the loop about such shenanigans while I wait to see if they even exist or not.

Perhaps it's because I don't also want to get entangled in the high school type shit that goes on here with cliques and offshoots and so on, and if that's the way it goes, so be it, I'll remain in the dark.

On the plus side, it just occurred to me that the accusations that the lounge thread is a left-wing echo chamber is clearly a projection of the accusers' inclusion (or desire to be, perhaps) in one of these side chats full of people united around their opposition to [insert scapegoat] while telling themselves and each other they're just trying to have fun.