Usman - Chimaev Media Scores

First round 1: Chimaev 10-9 or 10-8
Both scores have their merit it's fine.

Second round: 10-9 Usman
I could maybe see a 10-9 Chimaev but not really

Third round: 10-9 Chimaev
That takedown at the end was big.

Scoring round anything else makes 0 sense.
 
I can see a draw but in no reality did Usman win.

Clearly possible.

10-9 for the first as very little damage, next 2 usman.

I have to presume you disagree 10-9 for the first, so I will ask, can you recall a 10-8 with less damage? Ever?
 
Clearly possible.

10-9 for the first as very little damage, next 2 usman.

I have to presume you disagree 10-9 for the first, so I will ask, can you recall a 10-8 with less damage? Ever?
Maybe familiarize yourself with the updated scoring criteria
 
New rules, Topuira had a very rare 10/7 against Emmett recently. 10/8 is totally fine in this case. He landed some good shots, was threatining with subs and had complete control. He outlanded him 61/5 in the first with 4.30min control time.
I am completely fine with the 10-8. I was just playing around. I don't think Usman wins the round for breaking his wrist9that was probably just a little sore) 10-9 Usman for the other rounds is also correct.
This fight should have happened at WW with a camp and actually should have been a great performance by both with Khamzat 10-8ing Usman in the wrestling, but showing he has some holes on the feet to be exploited making a Leon fight interesting. Now he gets an undeserved title shot because they think they can get him the belt vs Strickland.

It's about as WWE as possible.
 
Please never become a judge. We all know the rules are not applicable in the real world. We need less 10-8s not mor. It will ruin the sport.

Anyway, the new ruleset is supposed to take damage as the most important criteria. Maybe if there was close moments where Usman got choked or something. But nothing came close. Hell, takedowns are barely supposed to be scored unless something is done with it. Holding someone's back is important, and can win you the round, but you gotta do something with it to justify a 10-8.

Again, less 10-8s in mma.
Please dont ever ever judge this sport again

The rules are if there is a dominant winner it's 10-8...that makes sense as a dominant round like that shouldnt count the same as a close round like the 2nd.
 
I am completely fine with the 10-8. I was just playing around. I don't think Usman wins the round for breaking his wrist9that was probably just a little sore) 10-9 Usman for the other rounds is also correct.
This fight should have happened at WW with a camp and actually should have been a great performance by both with Khamzat 10-8ing Usman in the wrestling, but showing he has some holes on the feet to be exploited making a Leon fight interesting. Now he gets an undeserved title shot because they think they can get him the belt vs Strickland.

It's about as WWE as possible.
It's a buisness. Let him fight Strickland and see how he'll be doing. It's a good fight for us. Way better than some rematch. And of course, WME likes their doe but at this point they don't really care who's a champ or who's not, they will be going strong with their narratives anyways and it will work out for them.

Times of Conor and Rhonda are over for now.
 
Anyway, the new ruleset is supposed to take damage as the most important criteria.

I keep hearing this, and I'm not trying to pick on you in particular whatsoever so feel free to tldr; and skip this retarded post. I needed this quote though, and so I'm posing this as an open question for the group, so I can maybe learn some shit

Can someone in the thread point out to me the interpretation of this?

Here's the latest rules, afaik

I'm putting my take in a spoiler to not clutter the thread, but I did try to make it readable, if you guys are bored.
c. Judges shall evaluate Mixed Martial Arts techniques, such as effective striking/grappling(Plan A), effective aggressiveness(Plan B),and control of the fighting area(Plan C). Plans B and C are not taken into consideration unless Plan A is weighed as being even
d. Evaluations shall be made in the specific order in which the techniques appear in (c)above ,giving the most weight in scoring to effective striking/grappling, and effective aggressiveness, and control of the fighting area

Rules seem pretty clear that striking and grappling are weighted equally. Aggression and octagon control (not grappling control) are considered after.

e. Effective striking is judged by determining the impact/effect of legal strikes landed by a contestant solely based on the results of such legal strikes. Effective grappling is assessed by the successful executions and impactful/effective result(s) coming from: takedown(s), submission attempt(s), achieving an advantageous position(s) and reversal(s).

Seems to me Khamzat technically qualifies for that in all 3 rounds, but the impact/effectiveness is what's debatable.

2. Impact: A judge shall assess if a fighter impacts their opponent significantly in the round, even though they may not have dominated the action. Impact includes visible evidence such as swelling and lacerations. Impact shall also be assessed when a fighter’s actions, using striking and/or grappling, lead to a diminishing of their opponent’s energy, confidence, abilities and spirit. All of these come as a direct result of impact. When a fighter is impacted by strikes, by lack of control and/or ability, this can create defining moments in the round and shall be assessed with great value.

In the absence of real damage (cuts/knockdowns/bruising/etc), it comes down to sapping the opponents energy, confidence, abilities and spirit for both striking/grappling. I would argue Khamzat qualified for this metric with all 3 of his takedowns, since there was no real damage by either fighter.

Again - if we agree real striking damage (cuts/wobbles/etc) is weighted more, then this is akin to pillow-fisted GNP right? Or a shitty leg kick? It may not be overwhelming or even super relevant, but it counts - especially when the other dude doesn't do shit.

3. Dominance: As MMA is an offensive based sport, dominance of a round can be seen in striking when the losing fighter is forced to continually defend, with no counters or reaction taken when openings present themselves. Dominance in the grappling phase can be seen by fighter staking dominant positions in the fight and utilizing those positions to attempt fight ending submissions or attacks. Merely holding a dominant position(s) shall not be a primary factor in assessing dominance. What the fighter does with those positions is what must be assessed. In the absence of dominance in the grappling phase, as set forth in paragraph 3 of the promulgated rules, to be considered dominate, there must be a singularly or in combination, some types of submission attempts, strikes, or an overwhelming pace which is measured by improved or aggressive positional changes that cause the losing fighter to consistently be in a defensive or reactive mode

The orange is what is commonly cited as the "You have to do something with position" rule. But again, it quite literally says afterwards that if that doesn't happen, if can still be considered dominant by aggressively trying to improve and keeping your opponent in a defensive and reactive mode.

I'm not sure if the 'dominance' section only applies to 10-8s, but for arguments sake lets assume it applies to everything. I wrote my take on this above, but this reads to me as "you can't lay in one position without making attempt to do absolutely anything". I don't recall Khamzat chilling and stalling out like Bruno Silva did, but rather Kamaru actively (and effectively) defending what Khamzat was trying to do. Chimaev was trying to do shit, but Usman was much more defensively responsible on the ground then Li Jingliang and Kevin Holland.

Unless there is real damage (cuts/bruising/wobbles/etc), it seems to me that the grappling absolutely should qualify. The idea that a 2 significant strike advantage in the second round equates to 41 seconds (15% of the round) of control is crazy to me. The idea that Usman's 9 pitter-patter strike advantage in the third equates to over 2 minutes of control is crazy to me.

Let me just reiterate for the 100th time though because I know people are going to blast this post - I would have a 100% different perspective if Usman had knocked Chimaev down, cut him open, wobbled him badly, or threatened a finish at any moment of the fight. But without any real damage from Usman, I can't weight his actions more than the control from Chimaev from the rules I'm reading.
 
It's a buisness. Let him fight Strickland and see how he'll be doing. It's a good fight for us. Way better than some rematch. And of course, WME likes their doe but at this point they don't really care who's a champ or who's not, they will be going strong with their narratives anyways and it will work out for them.

Times of Conor and Rhonda are over for now.

We have the perfect challenger in DDP who has a signature win in Whittaker the consensus number 2 by dominant finish. He also didn't just suffer an injury in a forgettable fight.

Khamzat should fight any of the other ranked 185ers. At this point he has a draw over Usman with Derek Cleary being an outlier (as usual) in two separate rounds and a win over Holland in a catchweight fight. He doesn't have a single ranked 185 win and we have 2-3 legit contenders. If you put Khamzat in you are killing 185 when it just got interesting again.

How many more divisions can we do this in?
HW-Jones and Stipe both having one last fight and riding off into the sunset.
205-Champion injured from being fat and playing basketball after the previous champ also vacated, with a 185er getting the shot off 1 win, after they just decided not to award the belt in the previous champ fight. WTF...
185-Unranked WW fighting for belt with multiple contenders like DDP, Cannonier (win over Strickland) etc
170-Colby leapfrogging the entire division again with no active WWs or ranked wins on his resume.
155-FW champ is the last 2 fights with the champ only having fought 1 of the top 10.
145-FW champ fighting in LW and just might have pushed his defence back to mid next year if he is smarter.
135-O'malley is chasing Vera with Merab now fighting CCC.
125-Pantoja only champ looking to defend.

These decisions are actually killing the divisions completely for short term fights. You just end up with guys getting completely stalled the second they end up in the top 15.
 
We have the perfect challenger in DDP who has a signature win in Whittaker the consensus number 2 by dominant finish. He also didn't just suffer an injury in a forgettable fight.

Khamzat should fight any of the other ranked 185ers. At this point he has a draw over Usman with Derek Cleary being an outlier (as usual) in two separate rounds and a win over Holland in a catchweight fight. He doesn't have a single ranked 185 win and we have 2-3 legit contenders. If you put Khamzat in you are killing 185 when it just got interesting again.

How many more divisions can we do this in?
HW-Jones and Stipe both having one last fight and riding off into the sunset.
205-Champion injured from being fat and playing basketball after the previous champ also vacated, with a 185er getting the shot off 1 win, after they just decided not to award the belt in the previous champ fight. WTF...
185-Unranked WW fighting for belt with multiple contenders like DDP, Cannonier (win over Strickland) etc
170-Colby leapfrogging the entire division again with no active WWs or ranked wins on his resume.
155-FW champ is the last 2 fights with the champ only having fought 1 of the top 10.
145-FW champ fighting in LW and just might have pushed his defence back to mid next year if he is smarter.
135-O'malley is chasing Vera with Merab now fighting CCC.
125-Pantoja only champ looking to defend.

These decisions are actually killing the divisions completely for short term fights. You just end up with guys getting completely stalled the second they end up in the top 15.
Yes yes, but I simply don't like DDP and his fake candymen-smile. So fuck that guy. lol.
 
I keep hearing this, and I'm not trying to pick on you in particular whatsoever so feel free to tldr; and skip this retarded post. I needed this quote though, and so I'm posing this as an open question for the group, so I can maybe learn some shit

Can someone in the thread point out to me the interpretation of this?

Here's the latest rules, afaik

I'm putting my take in a spoiler to not clutter the thread, but I did try to make it readable, if you guys are bored.
Rules seem pretty clear that striking and grappling are weighted equally. Aggression and octagon control (not grappling control) are considered after.



Seems to me Khamzat technically qualifies for that in all 3 rounds, but the impact/effectiveness is what's debatable.



In the absence of real damage (cuts/knockdowns/bruising/etc), it comes down to sapping the opponents energy, confidence, abilities and spirit for both striking/grappling. I would argue Khamzat qualified for this metric with all 3 of his takedowns, since there was no real damage by either fighter.

Again - if we agree real striking damage (cuts/wobbles/etc) is weighted more, then this is akin to pillow-fisted GNP right? Or a shitty leg kick? It may not be overwhelming or even super relevant, but it counts - especially when the other dude doesn't do shit.



The orange is what is commonly cited as the "You have to do something with position" rule. But again, it quite literally says afterwards that if that doesn't happen, if can still be considered dominant by aggressively trying to improve and keeping your opponent in a defensive and reactive mode.

I'm not sure if the 'dominance' section only applies to 10-8s, but for arguments sake lets assume it applies to everything. I wrote my take on this above, but this reads to me as "you can't lay in one position without making attempt to do absolutely anything". I don't recall Khamzat chilling and stalling out like Bruno Silva did, but rather Kamaru actively (and effectively) defending what Khamzat was trying to do. Chimaev was trying to do shit, but Usman was much more defensively responsible on the ground then Li Jingliang and Kevin Holland.

Unless there is real damage (cuts/bruising/wobbles/etc), it seems to me that the grappling absolutely should qualify. The idea that a 2 significant strike advantage in the second round equates to 41 seconds (15% of the round) of control is crazy to me. The idea that Usman's 9 pitter-patter strike advantage in the third equates to over 2 minutes of control is crazy to me.

Let me just reiterate for the 100th time though because I know people are going to blast this post - I would have a 100% different perspective if Usman had knocked Chimaev down, cut him open, wobbled him badly, or threatened a finish at any moment of the fight. But without any real damage from Usman, I can't weight his actions more than the control from Chimaev from the rules I'm reading.

Re read Impact in striking for the round 2 going to Usman. Khamzat is visibly reacting to Usman's shot and visibly retreating as a result. That is assessed under the damage/impact criteria (the highest). If your opponent is reacting to your strikes and you are making them retreat or go backwards defending, you are winning that criteria if there is no visible damage. That criteria is assessed first before all others, which is why the takedown in the 3rd also doesn't steal Khamzat the round.

If Khamzat had landed ground and pound in the 3rd of a sufficient level to equal the 2-1 striking ratio in Usmans favour, he takes the 3rd, but he didn't. His takedown and ground and pound shouldn't have given him the 3rd for that reason.

Khamzat took the 2nd round off to try and recover and lost it as a result. Usman's landed some excellent strikes in that round. 2/3 judges agreed on the 2nd going to Usman, 2/3 judges agreed on the third going to Usman. Derek Cleary gave the second to Usman thinking he won the striking, but 3rd to Chimaev off the takedown.

What scoring criteria was he assessing under in that fight as his two assessments contradict each other. He just gave Chimaev the 3rd off the takedown and getting outstruck after believing Usman won the striking in the closest round of the fight that could have gone to Chimaev.
 
Re read Impact in striking for the round 2 going to Usman. Khamzat is visibly reacting to Usman's shot and visibly retreating as a result. That is assessed under the damage/impact criteria (the highest). If your opponent is reacting to your strikes and you are making them retreat or go backwards defending, you are winning that criteria if there is no visible damage. That criteria is assessed first before all others, which is why the takedown in the 3rd also doesn't steal Khamzat the round.

2. Impact: A judge shall assess if a fighter impacts their opponent significantly in the round, even
though they may not have dominated the action. Impact includes visible evidence such as swelling
and lacerations
. Impact shall also be assessed when a fighter’s actions, using striking and/or
grappling
, lead to a diminishing of their opponent’s energy, confidence, abilities and spirit. All of these
come as a direct result of impact. When a fighter is impacted by strikes, by lack of control and/or
ability, this can create defining moments in the round and shall be assessed with great value.

I guess I would say that if we are suggesting that simply retreating from a punch falls into the 'diminishing of their opponent's energy confidence, abilities, and spirit', then so should grappling a guy who's actively defending himself (even without visible damage/dangerous subs), as long as you aren't completely starfishing.

Unless, of course, I'm citing the wrong section lol
 
Yes yes, but I simply don't like DDP and his fake candymen-smile. So fuck that guy. lol.
I agree. The guy went to the death with Darren Till of all people, but he destroyed Whittaker even more violently than Islam just beat Volk. Islam landed a beautiful headkick where as DDP just ran over Whittaker with brute force.

That DDP fight is really interesting with Strickland and making the decision to go with that fight would open up the entire MW division to multiple great match ups in Izzys abscence. If you throw Chimaev in there and he loses he is out of both 170 and 185 rankings straight after a title shot and your MW division is stalled. Plus he misses weight repeatedly and takes massive breaks between fights. It's a dumb decision by the UFC to put the fight on.
 
we've seen rounds much more dominant than round 1 in this fight not scored 10-8.
 
I agree. The guy went to the death with Darren Till of all people, but he destroyed Whittaker even more violently than Islam just beat Volk. Islam landed a beautiful headkick where as DDP just ran over Whittaker with brute force.

That DDP fight is really interesting with Strickland and making the decision to go with that fight would open up the entire MW division to multiple great match ups in Izzys abscence. If you throw Chimaev in there and he loses he is out of both 170 and 185 rankings straight after a title shot and your MW division is stalled. Plus he misses weight repeatedly and takes massive breaks between fights. It's a dumb decision by the UFC to put the fight on.
Yes, absolutely.
 
I guess I would say that if we are suggesting that simply retreating from a punch falls into the 'diminishing of their opponent's energy confidence, abilities, and spirit', then so should grappling a guy who's actively defending himself (even without visible damage/dangerous subs), as long as you aren't completely starfishing.

Unless, of course, I'm citing the wrong section lol

That is correct, but also covered in the scoring. A clean strike that causes impact is assessed higher than maintaining a dominant position on the ground. MMA is an offence based sport. That's how you get a 10-8 in the first for Khamzat. If you award it off control time it's a 10-9. The 10-8 is due to the dominant takedowns, sig strikes (61-5) and choke attempts. If you scored it because of control time, you have misread the scoring criteria.

The takedown itself doesn't really score within MMA, it's what happens after it.The slams do as impact not as control but it's basically assessed as a sig strike. The offence after the takedown, needs to lead to impact or damage scoring criteria or it goes to Usman based off the start of that round and the end of the round. The 10 point must system scores any portion of the round equally.
 
That is correct, but also covered in the scoring. A clean strike that causes impact is assessed higher than maintaining a dominant position on the ground. MMA is an offence based sport. That's how you get a 10-8 in the first for Khamzat. If you award it off control time it's a 10-9. The 10-8 is due to the dominant takedowns, sig strikes (61-5) and choke attempts. If you scored it because of control time, you have misread the scoring criteria.

The takedown itself doesn't really score within MMA, it's what happens after it.The slams do as impact not as control but it's basically assessed as a sig strike. The offence after the takedown, needs to lead to impact or damage scoring criteria or it goes to Usman based off the start of that round and the end of the round. The 10 point must system scores any portion of the round equally.

You keep saying this, and I believe you, but I don't see that anywhere in the rules.

--------------

1.The following objective scoring criteria shall be utilized by the judges when scoring a round:

(i) A round is to be scored as a 10-10 Round when both contestants have competed for whatever duration of time in the round and there is no difference or advantage between either fighter;
(ii)A round is to be scored as a 10-9 Round when a contestant wins by a close margin; where the winning fighter lands the better strikes or utilizes effective grappling during the round;
(iii)A round is to be scored as a 10-8 Round when a contestant wins the round by a large margin by impact, dominance, and duration of striking or grappling in a round.
(iv)A round is to be scored as a 10-7 Round when a contestant is completely dominated by impact, dominance, and duration of striking or grappling in a round.

This is the scoring criteria.

It literally just says whoever has the better strikes + effective grappling.

And we went over that "effective grappling" encompasses:

Effective grappling is assessed by the successful executions and impactful/effective result(s) coming from: takedown(s), submission attempt(s), achieving an advantageous position(s) and reversal(s).

And we went over that "impactful results" SHOULD encompass control:

When a fighter is impacted by strikes, by lack of control and/or ability, this can create defining moments in the round and shall be assessed with great value.

--------------

So again - I'm not calling you a liar, but I'm not sure I understand where the "point fighting > all grappling besides strikes + subs" take comes from. I understand you keep telling me it's in the rules, I just don't really see it. I'm sure there's an obvious section I'm missing, but idk.
 
29-28 Chimaev for me. I need to see more damage for a 10-8 round. Usman was never hurt and he was never in any real danger whatsoever. There was never even a real sub attempt.

Rd 3 was close, but Chimaev got the takedown with over 2 minutes left and Usman was controlled until 30 seconds left. He didn't do enough on offense to secure that round.

To me Usman was 1 td stuff away from winning the fight on my card. Chimaev got that ankle and was able to get a TD so credit to him. Overall I see a 5 rounder going Usman's way.
 
Cageside press 30-26 ? lol I've heard it all now
 
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