Using Rubber Guard/Bravo stuff in a non-10th planet gym that isn't supportive?

[Uchi Mata]

It's not close minded to be based in reality.

Atos is probably one of the most innovative teams in BJJ. I mean they have been at the vanguard of a whole new BJJ paradigm for the past five years or so.

Those guys have a system that works, and they mostly stick to it until something better comes along. You don't see much rubber guard out of them. They discourage it as far as I can tell.

Why is that? Is it that they are close minded? Or is it that they just realize that it's not the best option?

Here is the difference: if you look at the stuff Atos mainly teaches, you will see it used repeatedly, with success, at the highest levels of BJJ. When was the last time you saw rubber guard used there?

There is a difference between being open minded and just fantasizing. The rubber guard revolution was supposed to happen a decade ago. It didn't.

For all the talk of "let the mat sort it out", I'm pretty sure the mat already did years ago. Yet some guys still cling to it for reasons I do not fully understand.

Eddie Bravo does a lot more self promotion than Rafa Mendes. Joe Rogan is a big proponent of it, and he's very much in the public eye, especially among MMA fans who grapple. The 2nd Royler match probably gave 10th Planet at least another 5 years of pseudo-respectability too.

Here's the thing: Eddie Bravo is not a bad grappler. His students are not bad grapplers. They're just not the best grapplers by any means, and their idiosyncratic system seems to fail against the best guys on the scene. But they market the shit out of it, and it works really well against lower ranked people who haven't seen it before because it is tricky to deal with a lot of 10th Planet's stuff. Then guys end up getting stuck with using it because they never develop a good basic game that will work against anyone, and once they're at purple or brown belt they don't want to give it up and get tapped out as they try to learn how to play basic stuff that they should have been working on for years at that point.

This happens outside of BJJ too, for what it's worth. I saw guys in Judo who would get really good at one or two unusual throws and that would allow them to throw a lot of green and brown belts in the dojo, but once they got to black belt ranks their lack of proficiency in the main throws like seio nage, uchi mata, osoto gari, and ouchi gari let them down and they couldn't get their tricky stuff to work against experienced competitors. It can lead to a real stagnation in development. I myself fell into that category for a long time and it was a real slog to climb out of it (and I'm still not as good as I think I would have been if I'd just worked on the basic throws from the beginning).

 

[Qtip inspector]

10 th planet involves a lot more than just rubber guard

I've been in OP position
Blatantly told to not use the grapevine /lockdown
A lot of it is politics for sure
Btw I train with Denny since before he afflilated with Eddie
I don't use rubber guard but a lot of other stuff
And funny since 10 th planet technique is so shitty to some of you
Denny does a lot of seminars outside of 10p
Caio terra trains with him and has him do seminars at his schools

I can only speak for 10p SF. But no one can or would question how legit our gym is in nor cal

 

[PabloMEX]

How can someone tell you to not use the lockdown?

 

[Qtip inspector]

Easy. " no don't use that"
I'm not sure of its true to this day
I knew guys at a certain gym that could not come train with me because they were not allowed in 10p gym. Literally
It's over politics. Not technique

 

[Balto]

How can someone tell you to not use the lockdown?

It locks you down about as much as it locks down the other person. It can create issues when the guy on top knows how to deal with it and puts on a good crossface.

It has a place I think, but there are some downsides for sure. If you are unable to switch to something else when the guy is good at countering it, it can become an issue for your game.

 

[Uchi Mata]

10 th planet involves a lot more than just rubber guard

I've been in OP position
Blatantly told to not use the grapevine /lockdown
A lot of it is politics for sure
Btw I train with Denny since before he afflilated with Eddie
I don't use rubber guard but a lot of other stuff
And funny since 10 th planet technique is so shitty to some of you
Denny does a lot of seminars outside of 10p
Caio terra trains with him and has him do seminars at his schools

I can only speak for 10p SF. But no one can or would question how legit our gym is in nor cal

I want to be clear, I don't think all 10th Planet stuff is useless or bad. I use some rubber guard-esque setups for omoplatas and I know guys who utilize the lockdown fairly well, but it's only one part of their games. I think what annoys instructors is when people fixate on 10th Planet stuff as 'the answer' and don't try to learn the basic curriculum. For some reason this only seems to happen with 10th Planet, though you could make a case that some competitive newbs do the same thing with Atos's black belt competition style (berimbolos, 50/50, etc).

 

[brendan raedy]

It can create issues when the guy on top knows how to deal with it and puts on a good crossface.

It has a place I think, but there are some downsides for sure. If you are unable to switch to something else when the guy is good at countering it, it can become an issue for your game.

I mean, you could replace "lockdown" with just about any guard, such as deep half, and the same criticism applies.

I think the issue is people using the lockdown just to stall rather than using it to whip up and try to get back on their side.

 

[SummerStriker]

It locks you down about as much as it locks down the other person. It can create issues when the guy on top knows how to deal with it and puts on a good crossface.

It has a place I think, but there are some downsides for sure. If you are unable to switch to something else when the guy is good at countering it, it can become an issue for your game.

I've watched a lot of lock down stuff. Most of the demonstrations I've seen start with the lockdown leg position, but the shoulders flat and the top man cross facing you. They always start it with the "jaws of life" and whip up, which seem pretty effective, at least as much as anything else.

The only time I've personally been smashed down enough that I can use the jaws of life, I've been able to retake full guard.

In general.

 

[Balto]

I mean, you could replace "lockdown" with just about any guard, such as deep half, and the same criticism applies.

I think the issue is people using the lockdown just to stall rather than using it to whip up and try to get back on their side.

There are a lot of guards out there that were created mainly to solve the specific crossface/smash problem that the lockdown presents. In particular, knee shield half guard, RDLR, etc. Also a lot of Marcelo's stuff manages the distance pretty well, with things like one legged X, etc.

It is undeniable that you see these guards having a lot more success at high levels. We have these reality checks several times a year in the form of tournaments, and we can all watch and see what strategies are working out the best across the board. Things ebb and flow, and that is normal. Some things have never really worked that much in the first place though, despite best efforts by all involved.

It is said that the mat does not lie. I think that's mostly true. However, even if the mat is telling the truth, a lot of people will just say "Hey, shut up mat, I'm trying to do this thing over here whether you think it's a good idea or not." That's where I think a coach comes into play.

 

[Qtip inspector]

I want to be clear, I don't think all 10th Planet stuff is useless or bad. I use some rubber guard-esque setups for omoplatas and I know guys who utilize the lockdown fairly well, but it's only one part of their games. I think what annoys instructors is when people fixate on 10th Planet stuff as 'the answer' and don't try to learn the basic curriculum. For some reason this only seems to happen with 10th Planet, though you could make a case that some competitive newbs do the same thing with Atos's black belt competition style (berimbolos, 50/50, etc).

I started bjj under a team balance philly purple
Then another Carlson purple and Darren / "bonecrusher "
I'm a fundamentals guy. One of the most in my gym
I don't like the 10p hype and the fan boys /one trick ponys too
It's all Jiu Jitsu to me, I just pick what works for me and call it a day
And I've picked up a lot of 10p things( that you would find in a lot of gyms)
And it works on brown /blacks ( I've been purple for 3-1/2 y)

 

[brendan raedy]

There are a lot of guards out there that were created mainly to solve the specific crossface/smash problem that the lockdown presents. In particular, knee shield half guard, RDLR, etc. Also a lot of Marcelo's stuff manages the distance pretty well, with things like one legged X, etc.

It is undeniable that you see these guards having a lot more success at high levels. We have these reality checks several times a year in the form of tournaments, and we can all watch and see what strategies are working out the best across the board. Things ebb and flow, and that is normal. Some things have never really worked that much in the first place though, despite best efforts by all involved.

It is said that the mat does not lie. I think that's mostly true. However, even if the mat is telling the truth, a lot of people will just say "Hey, shut up mat, I'm trying to do this thing over here whether you think it's a good idea or not." That's where I think a coach comes into play.

Not disagreeing with you, but tournaments prove just as much if not more about the competitive strategy and physical attributes of competitors as they do the efficacy of techniques.

It took the better part of a decade for things like guillotines and leg locks to be accepted as legitimate moves.

 

[Balto]

Not disagreeing with you, but tournaments prove just as much if not more about the competitive strategy and physical attributes of competitors as they do the efficacy of techniques.

It took the better part of a decade for things like guillotines and leg locks to be accepted as legitimate moves.

You are correct. But competitive strategy and physical attributes should generally even out across all the styles, no? I mean it seems to even out just fine with the other styles.

The simple fact is that guys from Atos, Alliance, GB, Checkmat, GFT, Cicero Costha, etc. are reliably killing it at black belt. Guys from 10P are reliably not.

A lot of these teams are newer/smaller than 10P too. I'm specifically thinking of Atos, GFT, and Cicero Costha. I had heard of 10P before I had ever heard of them.

Now people can either accept the results and train towards that style (i.e. the mat doesn't lie), or they can try to find a way to explain away the results and train towards another style. For me, I would rather just accept the results as being tested effective and go with that generally.

 

[Dirty Holt]

The instructors at my gym think 10th Planet is bogus. My guess is because they never really get to roll with anyone who is really good at the system. They are going against mostly blue belts. Well, you should see the stupid shit most Gracie blue belts do. That doesnt mean Gracie JJ is horseshit.

I use freaking lockdown as my main guard. As a wrestler, it basically puts me into positions where I can dominate almost anyone at any belt level I am ever going to come across in a real match. After that, I dont use anything 10thp, and I am going to be at times, much worse than some black belts that I compete against in certain positions, but put me in lockdown with and underhook and I am 100% positive I am going to score eventually against 99% of people.

If 10thp can put you in a position you have the best chance of scoring, I would argue it is superior to most BJJ styles in that instance for your personal game. The problem is most 10thp guys are blue belts who do not have any areas where they can dominate, so the whole system gets shit on.

 

[selfcritical]

What's funny to me is that in the books, butterfly guard gets as much attention as rubber guard and lockdown, but rarely do I see a guy getting into tenth planet drilling the shit out of their hook flips

 

[Balto]

What's funny to me is that in the books, butterfly guard gets as much attention as rubber guard and lockdown, but rarely do I see a guy getting into tenth planet drilling the shit out of their hook flips

One of my best buddies (black belt) trained with Eddie at Legends a few times. He said it was completely different than he would have expected.

He was expecting a bunch of rubber guard, lockdown, and other things like that. Instead he said during the couple times he was there, Eddie just focused on basic pressure passing from the top. Really solid stuff, not flashy at all.

He said rolling with the guys, they basically just did regular stuff too. He said maybe a little bit here and there with the rubber guard, but really not that much. Overall it was very basics oriented and just solid guys. They did not really rely on the "10P System" in the way it seems to be popularly understood. He liked it more than most gyms.

He said he talked with Eddie after and he was real cool. He said Eddie also made fun of most of the 10P fanboys who don't really train with him saying he just shows that flashy stuff at seminars to keep them interested because otherwise they wouldn't want to do it.

 

[brendan raedy]

What's funny to me is that in the books, butterfly guard gets as much attention as rubber guard and lockdown, but rarely do I see a guy getting into tenth planet drilling the shit out of their hook flips

You can't really hold against a system what someone who buys a book does versus someone that actually trains under a black belt at an actual academy.

If some random blue belt fails at x-guard after buying Marcelo's book I'm not going to just cast his entire system aside.

 

[brendan raedy]

One of my best buddies (black belt) trained with Eddie at Legends a few times. He said it was completely different than he would have expected.

He was expecting a bunch of rubber guard, lockdown, and other things like that. Instead he said during the couple times he was there, Eddie just focused on basic pressure passing from the top. Really solid stuff, not flashy at all.

He said rolling with the guys, they basically just did regular stuff too. He said maybe a little bit here and there with the rubber guard, but really not that much. Overall it was very basics oriented and just solid guys. They did not really rely on the "10P System" in the way it seems to be popularly understood. He liked it more than most gyms.

He said he talked with Eddie after and he was real cool. He said Eddie also made fun of most of the 10P fanboys who don't really train with him saying he just shows that flashy stuff at seminars to keep them interested because otherwise they wouldn't want to do it.

Good post. Not shocking but still very interesting.

 

[TonyRo]

What's funny about this is that the first line of your post is basically exactly what an instructor is supposed to do. What works initially may not be what works long term. You can submit a lot of blue belts with omoplatas from rubber guard, but you don't see it working much at the highest levels because there are some fundamental deficiencies with the technique. Just because TS came from a gym that basically let him do whatever and taught whatever the students were interested in (which, no offense, sounds like a good way to get really mediocre students) doesn't mean he gets to continue learning whatever at his new gym. I don't think he should be prevented from working his rubber guard, but discouraging him from relying on a position that the instructor doesn't think is sound is to be expected from an instructor. If he doesn't like that he should just find a Gracie garage and train off of Youtube.

I should have been more careful with my words, as I agree with a lot of what you're saying. I do think that the OP should mostly stick with what's taught in the gym and respect the wishes and guidance from his instructor/professor. What I think sucks is:

1. The criticism doesn't appear to be constructive. If my instructor wanted me to quit doing something that I was kicking ass with, I'd really like a detailed, thorough, and well-reasoned explanation - not, "I hate 10th Planet BJJ", or "The Rubber Guard sucks".

2. I think if he's learning the stuff instructors are teaching in class and using it, there's no reason why he can't also pepper in some other fun stuff that he enjoys. BJJ schools are, to me, not places to churn out clones of a successful instructor - everyone needs to find something they love to do and that works for them. I guess balance is key. For instance, my instructor is making a concerted effort to bring back the Closed Guard. I actually enjoy all that stuff and use it, but for me, Spider Guard is the bees knees. It makes sense for my long lanky frame, I'm a huge Michael Langhi fan, and I just enjoy it. If he told me to put the kibosh on it completely, it would likely really kill my zest for learning. I think students having things that they enjoy studying on their own is really powerful for development. It shouldn't be everything, but it should be in there. I realize now my original post was strongly worded and a little off of what I actually wanted to say.

I do agree that if the OP is showing up, pulling guard to Lockdowns and Rubber Guard all the time and completely disregarding the guidance of his instructors, then that's not particularly great either.

 

[brendan raedy]

You are correct. But competitive strategy and physical attributes should generally even out across all the styles, no? I mean it seems to even out just fine with the other styles.

The simple fact is that guys from Atos, Alliance, GB, Checkmat, GFT, Cicero Costha, etc. are reliably killing it at black belt. Guys from 10P are reliably not.

A lot of these teams are newer/smaller than 10P too. I'm specifically thinking of Atos, GFT, and Cicero Costha. I had heard of 10P before I had ever heard of them.

Now people can either accept the results and train towards that style (i.e. the mat doesn't lie), or they can try to find a way to explain away the results and train towards another style. For me, I would rather just accept the results as being tested effective and go with that generally.

If you are talking about guys "killing it" at the black belt level you are talking a very small handful of 6-10 people. People who often switch from team to team, including many you mentioned, or form their own with already established competitors.

I think the majority of your time should be spent drilling the most successful moves at black belt level, but the game would never evolve if people didn't try to bring new stuff into it, and that doesn't happen over night.

 

[Balto]

Good post. Not shocking but still very interesting.

Yeah I was surprised too. Maybe that was just the days he went or something. But he said style wise, Eddie's gym was nearly indistinguishable from a regular BJJ gym.

He's also been to a lot of 10P affiliate gyms (guy just goes to a lot of gyms period), and he said Eddie was a lot less focused on the flashy stuff than the guys running 10P satellites in random cities who only see him for the occasional seminar.

Overall he was just real positive about Eddie the person and seemed to think that he was quite different in reality than Eddie the BJJ personality is perceived to be.