Using Rubber Guard/Bravo stuff in a non-10th planet gym that isn't supportive?

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by BrainBar2014, May 12, 2014.

  1. BrainBar2014 Yellow Belt

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    Wondered if anyone has this issue. Before I joined my current gym (2 years ago) I did mostly all no-gi at a gym that basically taught anything guys wanted to learn. I was blessed with very flexible hips and knees, and about 6 years ago started toying with the Eddie Bravo stuff, rubber guard especially. And I loved it. I trained it a lot in open mat, and have had some success in tournaments with it (mostly NAGA).

    But, my current gym and coaches hate rubber guard and anything Eddie Bravo. They don't outright ban it of course, but very much discourage it and say stop using "that stuff". But, I like it, and it works for me. The easy answer is change gyms...but I LOVE my current gym and coaches. This is without a doubt my only complaint, which means I've got a pretty good place to train.

    But, anyone have this issue, where you want to use certain style/technique that your school/coach discourages? Not just rubber guard, but anything that your school discourages? How do you deal with it?
     
  2. Sebg Orange Belt

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    Not sure how they can stop you using it in free rolling or sparring. If they don't like it they should learn the counters and how to shut it down (if they can).
     
  3. Mike Piekarski Blue Belt Professional Fighter

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    If it works for you then keep doing it. If you sub them enough they will have to respect it. My old coach encouraged rubber guard, my new ones are indifferent.
     
  4. Calibur Jiu Jitsu Snob

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    I wouldn't support a student who insisted on poor hip movement either.
     
  5. TonyRo White Belt

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    I think it's in poor taste and spirit for instructors to tell students what to do and what to learn. If they don't want to teach that, it's up to them - but to tell students to stop doing what they enjoy and what works, and to stifle learning outside of their school - that sucks if you ask me.
     
  6. BrainBar2014 Yellow Belt

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    They don't stop me, just discourage it, or simply say "stop using that stuff". I get their point...that I need to practice what we are teaching to get good at that. And they're right, and I DO practice our stuff. And, they have said that Rubber Guard and all the Bravo stuff only works if you practice it a LOT. But, if I don't practice it...how can I get better at it? Of course rubber guard wont work at first, or even in the first year or two playing around with it. No guard will immediately until you get good with it.
     
  7. BJJArsenal Brown Belt

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    I use rubber guard to a certain extent but if I was a coach I believe I think I would genuinely discourage it over using other closed guard techniques. There's far too many closed guard techniques that I find have been overlooked in the past couple years - not saying the same for you as you have a couple more years experience than myself - but I see a lot more high percentage techniques abandoned over positions such as rubber guard.
     
  8. BrainBar2014 Yellow Belt

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    I agree. I don't want to sound like a d-bag who is overstating himself or skills...but I've focused HARD on my guard for 10 years, and feel very good with the basics, and dabbled in rubber guard to have options for when I faced guys with great guard defense. I absolutely need lots of basic work with other elements, but guard is by far my strongest area, and I wanted to expand on it.

    But I think you're right, and that's probably where my coaches are coming from, knowing that working the core basics are always best. And I NEVER do the stuff like telling other students "Hey try this, this works better". I usually only play with RG when its open mat or Im rolling with a higher skill level guy that the basics aren't working on.

    Anyway....part of the process I suppose
     
  9. Uchi Mata Preaching the gospel of heel hooks and left kicks

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    What's funny about this is that the first line of your post is basically exactly what an instructor is supposed to do. What works initially may not be what works long term. You can submit a lot of blue belts with omoplatas from rubber guard, but you don't see it working much at the highest levels because there are some fundamental deficiencies with the technique. Just because TS came from a gym that basically let him do whatever and taught whatever the students were interested in (which, no offense, sounds like a good way to get really mediocre students) doesn't mean he gets to continue learning whatever at his new gym. I don't think he should be prevented from working his rubber guard, but discouraging him from relying on a position that the instructor doesn't think is sound is to be expected from an instructor. If he doesn't like that he should just find a Gracie garage and train off of Youtube.
     
  10. BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

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    10 years? what belt are you? you should be around brown at least...

    your coach sounds like a person I wouldnt want to be around... you dont need to practice what he shows once you are rolling, youve been on the mats for long enough to decide what the fuck you are going to work on while you are rolling, unless youa re in a competitive team, and i mean really competitive, then screw him.
     
  11. BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

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    I so much disagree with you on this... I believe at certain point, unless you are under a world class black belt, people is better learning stuff they are interested in rather than what the instructor is... group classes most of the times are a waste of time, because you rarely are in the same page as your instructor... for example, people have cycles in their grappling lifes, some times you are very into an specific position, and very focus on that, all your attention goes to that, and the instructor is showing whatever but that, what happens? when you go roll, you will most likely be focus on the position you are interested in... With all the info theres around right now, you will most likely get better teaching from youtube or some paid site than from your instructor. The times of vertical learning are way way behind, is just not efficient. Keenan in an interview detailed what was like training at Lloyds, he said that it was guys picking up stuff from youtube and drilling the fuck out of those techniques, without irvin interfering with the training... he used to hook up with jt and drilled stuff they got online, lloyd supervised the training, but it was pretty much everyone doing their own thing... Unless you are living in CA or brazil, in some hot spot, you will be getting better technique instruction from mendes bros, mginaction, or allgalvao than you would be getting from X dude. I rather drill and train whatever im on at the time that having to drill something the instructor is showing for white blues purples and browns...
     
  12. Uchi Mata Preaching the gospel of heel hooks and left kicks

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    I drill like a fiend, and I get a lot of my material from various instructionals. I do think it's a good way to progress when you're already pretty good. However, for most of us class is important as well. If you're under a good instructor you're learning from a well structured curriculum that is designed to give you answers in virtually all positions, and getting some level of proficiency in what the instructor is teaching is going to be important for your overall development. Bringing up TLI is a little silly in that context, because those guys were professional grapplers. Of course they're going to be working on very specific stuff just for tournaments, but I highly doubt Lloyd's white belts train like that, or that lower belts train like that at Atos, GB, Alliance, etc. I don't know how good TS is, if he's pretty high level then fine, do whatever. But it sounds like his last school was not very structured and so I wouldn't be surprised if there were some serious holes in his game that he should be working on instead of gimmicky 10th Planet stuff.
     
  13. BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

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    im not talking about white and blues... you have to reach certain level to be able to do that, level of techinque and understanding of jiu jitsu, your instructor is always good to point your mistakes (as long as he can see them). TS said hes been grappling for 10 years, unless hes the slowest leaner on planet earth, he should be pretty good by now...

    PS: by the way, sadly, I would venture to say that unless you are in a top elite team, curriculum and structure is probably non existent and the instructor just teaches whatever he has in his mind at that moment..
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2014
  14. brendan raedy Blue Belt

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    If a technique doesn't work, a coach shouldn't be concerned. People will let go of moves that do not work.

    If a student is putting everyone in lockdown halfguard, people should learn how to pass that position, rather than banning it. I think instructors try to ban moves out of fear and ignorance. They don't know how to address it, so they try to avoid it entirely.

    If a student wants to play rubber guard, why not? Having someone in your academy actually learn that system so other students can learn to at least defend it would be a huge benefit to any academy.
     
  15. EnforcementDroidSeries209 Excellence of execution belt Platinum Member

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    If a technique or strategy works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't.

    However, I have to ask have you trained in 10th Planet JJ formally, or have you only picked up the methods from online videos, books etc? Maybe the instructor discourages you because he thinks you are just imitating what you saw somewhere without fully understanding it, and think that doing so will hold your overall progression back. Like when a place has guys walk in off the street trying armbars because they saw it in a UFC fight and getting owned because they have no concept of controlling position, pressure and all the other stuff that goes into making ANY submission work.
     
  16. brendan raedy Blue Belt

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    There are a million things that go into a technique or strategy working or not working. Physical attributes, age, size, flexibility, injury, nerves, repetitions drilled, quality of training partners. You could watch a Leandro Lo match and then conclude spider guard doesn't work because he is passing everyone.

    There is so much good information out there now, I am thrilled if my students want to study and bring some of that into the academy. There is a a lot of bad information too, so at most I feel compelled to veer them away from less qualified and poor qualified instructionals.

    A student that picks and chooses isolated moves from instructionals out of context is probably going to pay selective attention at the academy as well, so IMO it is more of an issue with the student than studying technique on books or online.
     
  17. BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

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    there is nothing wrong with picking up stuff online, watching a good instructional on RG or any other postion is not the same as someone trying to do an arm bar because he saw it done in the UFC.
     
  18. JWNewOrleans Purple Belt

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    This.

    If the instructor doesn't support what the student is doing, he should be pointing out the flaws and teaching the counters. The technique will only be used if it is useful, if it truly is flawed and the instructor can point out why, then the problem will solve itself.

    As far as the instructor discouraging it because he thinks the student doesn't fully understand it, how can TS fully understand anything without putting it into action?
     
  19. EnforcementDroidSeries209 Excellence of execution belt Platinum Member

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    I didn't say TS was guilty of that, but only that an instructor could have this perception of it since its not something he includes or has drilled in his curriculum. One person's perception of an event is not always the fact of the matter, but we have to still understand why someone might view something in some fashion regardless. I merely suggested that his instructor's perception of the situation may be what I described but not necessarily the truth.


    EDIT
    I missed the post that said TS was 10 years into grappling.

    TS, how long have you been at this particular club out of curiosity or how is your relationship with the instructor in general?
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2014
  20. Balto Silver Belt

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    Uchi Mata is right on this.

    I don't get the whole "I know myself better than my coach" thing in BJJ. Actively opposing your coach is not something that works out well in most other things. It doesn't work out well here either. You and your coach need to be on the same page about things, or else you should probably just find another coach. There is plenty of room for individual style, but if your coach downright thinks something is a bad idea for your personal game, you should probably listen to him. That's what you pay him for.

    People don't understand the distinction between a coach and an instructor. For a couple thousand dollars a year, you are paying coach prices. If you just want instruction, pay for an MGinAction subscription and roll with your buddies on some mats in your garage. Do open mats and tournaments periodically to see where you stack up.

    A coach should be a little more than that. They should see you training every day, and if they are any good at their job, they will pick up on things that you can't see for yourself. That's exactly the point of having a coach. Even the top guys like Andre Galvao listen to their coaches. Sometimes you just can't see in yourself what a good coach can see. Again, that's the point of a coach.

    Bringing up the TLI example is funny because leaving that kind of environment is one of the main reasons those guys made a significant improvement at Atos. It is a lot better to be at a place like Atos where your coaches are actually on the mat with you, every day, rolling with you, coaching you, giving you hands on individualized feedback to help fill in the holes with your game that you can't see for yourself. Contrast that with the other method of just telling you to go YouTube some stuff and figure it out for yourself.
     

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