Using Rubber Guard/Bravo stuff in a non-10th planet gym that isn't supportive?

[BJJ_Rage]

Lloyd has what blackbelt world champ under his banner?

and these guys still attended regular classes (I talked with JT Torres twice while he was still at Lloyd's about how he trained) and on TOP of that had drilling classes/competition classes. So yes he did what he wanted but he ALSO did regular class too.

Cicero has a few, and dj is a world no gi champ...

JT is a pro grappler, all he does is train, so he had to attend regular class and also do driling/competition class... where do you think he got most of his learning from? if you were to have limited time to train, what would you rather do... train whatever the instructor feels like teaching that day, or drill whatever position you are interested at that moment of time, more important, what type of training do you think will produce the best results?

its really a no brainer... UNLESS you are under one world class instructor with a great structure and curriculum and that pays personal attention to his students (more like balto said, a coach, not just an instructor), you will be probably better learning straight from marcelo rafa andre than from your instructor... and thats the case in most part outside brasil and the US...

My classmate went to MG in new york, talked to marcelo about our situation (in the country) and how could we solve this problem (lack of world class instructors, we were thinking about spending a shit ton of money to bring a brazilian down here) you know what he said? simple, YOUTUBE your training.... those words came from marcelo garcia...

 

[Uchi Mata]

well, seems like cicero costha gives his classes that way (not sure though) so does Lloyd and both of them have a few black belts world champ under their banner...

Cicero has both regular classes and tons of open mat. I'm not surprised Lo and the Miyaos don't spend a lot of time in class, I wouldn't expect them to. They're pros. Their game informs ours, but their training methods are going to be very different for obvious reasons.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Cicero has both regular classes and tons of open mat. I'm not surprised Lo and the Miyaos don't spend a lot of time in class, I wouldn't expect them to. They're pros. Their game informs ours, but their training methods are going to be very different for obvious reasons.

of course, but this applies to all levels...

If you see my original comment, where I explicit said that IF YOU DONT HAVE A WORLD CLASS instructor, then the best way is, once you reach certain level, to do your own thing... this will not apply if for example, if ryan hall was the head instructor... although, supplementing your regular class with extra additional drilling classes will always be good, and at those classes, its you and your partner doing what ever you want to do, which is normally the part of your games that you are improving at the moment, and most likely will be trying that stuff while rolling, so then again, you will be getting the best results from the drills you are doing on your own, not the ones in class. mmmmmm :icon_cry2

 

[Balto]

Cicero Costha has Leandro Lo. Other than that, I don't think there are any other black belt world champs there.

Miyaos will probably be champs someday, but as of right now Mendes Bros are still on top.

He is a world class trainer for sure though.

 

[lechien]

its really a no brainer... UNLESS you are under one world class instructor with a great structure and curriculum and that pays personal attention to his students (more like balto said, a coach, not just an instructor), you will be probably better learning straight from marcelo rafa andre than from your instructor... and thats the case in most part outside brasil and the US...

My classmate went to MG in new york, talked to marcelo about our situation (in the country) and how could we solve this problem (lack of world class instructors, we were thinking about spending a shit ton of money to bring a brazilian down here) you know what he said? simple, YOUTUBE your training.... those words came from marcelo garcia...

I am not suprised at all.

I think it is important to supply a good training program: ensure that all the aspects are covered in the foundation program.
You need to keep the cycle of topics at the right lenght. Not too short that you do not cover the curriculum in great details. At the moment, my foundation cycle is about 6 weeks.
But also you do not want it too long that you cover too much of your curriculum but then a student miss out on one class and the same topic would not covered again for another 6 months etc..

Then once the students have learned the foundation program, you need to move on to the intermediate program. At the moment, I have a cycle of 6 months where I introduce "new guard" systems. We go over it for about 2 weeks each. I start from spider guard, dlr, rdlr, deep, x, single x etc...

The idea is that I do NOT want to create mini version of myself and forces my students to copy my style.

I introduced them to all the gaurds and discuss the transitions between each of them and their pro and cons.

I let them choose the game they likes and encourage them to watch youtube and discuss latest moves that they have seen and tried.

At the end, I expect to do their own training and research. I would just be like a professor guiding and encouraging a student writing his phd.

Also, I have just introduced a new warm up program. It is based on Andre Galvao book named drills to win. we will covering the whole booke section by section (3-4 drills per class) maybe a cycle of 6 weeks.

I hope that the new drilling programs will encourage them to .....drills to win.

 

[Ice 9 Cobra]

I have trained at a decent amount of 10P gyms, and I think the shitty flash moves myth is perpetuated by white belts who watch youtube video, not the actual affiliates.

I sort of see 10P as the goth/punk/drama kid clique of BJJ. They don't really fit in with the standard, so they act and get treated like they're different when they're basically the same.

Plus everyone is doing the truck nowadays. I think we're going to start to see more and more truck entries from guard passes.

 

[Uchi Mata]

of course, but this applies to all levels...

If you see my original comment, where I explicit said that IF YOU DONT HAVE A WORLD CLASS instructor, then the best way is, once you reach certain level, to do your own thing... this will not apply if for example, if ryan hall was the head instructor... although, supplementing your regular class with extra additional drilling classes will always be good, and at those classes, its you and your partner doing what ever you want to do, which is normally the part of your games that you are improving at the moment, and most likely will be trying that stuff while rolling, so then again, you will be getting the best results from the drills you are doing on your own, not the ones in class. mmmmmm :icon_cry2

I don't think you need a world class instructor, you just need a good one with a structured curriculum who actually thinks and plans regarding the development of his students. My teacher is very good but not world class, but he has a highly structured curriculum and people get much better when they come from other schools and start training with him. I think you're underrating how many good coaches are out there and overrating the ability of most lower ranks to take control of their own development.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I have trained at a decent amount of 10P gyms, and I think the shitty flash moves myth is perpetuated by white belts who watch youtube video, not the actual affiliates.

I sort of see 10P as the goth/punk/drama kid clique of BJJ. They don't really fit in with the standard, so they act and get treated like they're different when they're basically the same.

Plus everyone is doing the truck nowadays. I think we're going to start to see more and more truck entries from guard passes.

Truck is pretty badass. Though I like Ryan Hall's take on it more than Eddie's.

 

[Ice 9 Cobra]

I don't know Hall's take on the truck, but I absolutely love Rader's entry. Its a great versatile position. Too bad it doesn't get scored.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

I don't think you need a world class instructor, you just need a good one with a structured curriculum who actually thinks and plans regarding the development of his students. My teacher is very good but not world class, but he has a highly structured curriculum and people get much better when they come from other schools and start training with him. I think you're underrating how many good coaches are out there and overrating the ability of most lower ranks to take control of their own development.

I guess we will just agree to disagree... the instructor is important to give you a guidance on your journey, but after a while, in these times, I think its more up to you to develop more than upto your instructor... in terms of techniques, I highly doubt you will get better techniques and details than the ones you are getting online, now he can guide you on his thoughts about your game and the mistakes you are making, and I think thats why your coach is important. May be is just me, and Im basing my opinion in my experience, which does not include training at top academies.

 

[brendan raedy]

I guess we will just agree to disagree... the instructor is important to give you a guidance on your journey, but after a while, in these times, I think its more up to you to develop more than upto your instructor... in terms of techniques, I highly doubt you will get better techniques and details than the ones you are getting online, now he can guide you on his thoughts about your game and the mistakes you are making, and I think thats why your coach is important. May be is just me, and Im basing my opinion in my experience, which does not include training at top academies.

I think you are both right. Many paths lead to the same goal. It depends on the student. Some folks need a task master than will keep them accountable. Other need someone who can provide the necessary ingredients; mat space, good training partners, basics. Beyond that, they need flexibility to learn and grow on their own.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I guess we will just agree to disagree... the instructor is important to give you a guidance on your journey, but after a while, in these times, I think its more up to you to develop more than upto your instructor... in terms of techniques, I highly doubt you will get better techniques and details than the ones you are getting online, now he can guide you on his thoughts about your game and the mistakes you are making, and I think thats why your coach is important. May be is just me, and Im basing my opinion in my experience, which does not include training at top academies.

The problem with learning online is that you have no one to correct you. Here's an example: I've been working on the long step pass for a long time, and it's never worked that well. I've never been taught it, I just watched a bunch of Mendes bros vids and tried to work on it on my own. Now, I'm a fairly advanced grappler and have been in this game a long time (over 10 years), but I still couldn't get it to work. A few weeks ago I went to an Andre Galvao seminar and asked him about it, and he showed me a few details that 100% changed the way I was doing it, and they weren't things you could really pick up from watching vids. He just watched me do it once or twice and then showed me where I was wrong. That's what you miss if you're mostly learning from videos: individual attention and correction. That's what you pay your instructor for, and it's why guys who learn primarily from their teachers are almost always better than guys who primarily learn by self training via Youtube. If you don't have a good instructor then Youtube is better than nothing, and it's definitely a good supplement even for guys with high quality instructors, but it's a poor replacement for a good coach.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

The problem with learning online is that you have no one to correct you. Here's an example: I've been working on the long step pass for a long time, and it's never worked that well. I've never been taught it, I just watched a bunch of Mendes bros vids and tried to work on it on my own. Now, I'm a fairly advanced grappler and have been in this game a long time (over 10 years), but I still couldn't get it to work. A few weeks ago I went to an Andre Galvao seminar and asked him about it, and he showed me a few details that 100% changed the way I was doing it, and they weren't things you could really pick up from watching vids. He just watched me do it once or twice and then showed me where I was wrong. That's what you miss if you're mostly learning from videos: individual attention and correction. That's what you pay your instructor for, and it's why guys who learn primarily from their teachers are almost always better than guys who primarily learn by self training via Youtube. If you don't have a good instructor then Youtube is better than nothing, and it's definitely a good supplement even for guys with high quality instructors, but it's a poor replacement for a good coach.

bro, I agree, but your case is extreme.... it took andre galvao to show you what you were missing, wasnt your coach seeing you made the same move over and over again ? if you been working on that move in your gym, I would assume that youve been watched by your coach, still it took galvao to correct you, see my point? im not saying learing online replaces a world class coach, or that you dont need to be look by your local coach... but there is time where your instructor knowledge is just not enough, his technique is miles away from the techinque you could be learning directly from rafa andre or marcelo online? how could he correct your mistakes if he doesnt even know whats wrong? for him to be able to correct the little mistakes that are probably making the difference between working and not working he has to know those little details, and bro, not every black belt knows them... I still go look for my coach to teach me stuff hes good at, much better than me, and for some basic sounded mistakes I still make as a purple, but theres stuff that he has just no clue about it, because is not part of his game so he may know the position but not to a fully extend... hes just a human being. On the other hand, my drilling partner could be giving me feed backs on why is not working the position, we can drill the position with progressive resistance etc etc, till it works. Just because my fellow purple does not wear a black belt doesnt mean hes not better than the black belt in class in that particular position... specially if he is obsess with the position...For example, im technically much better at back attacks (no gi) than my black belt instructor, I was better when I was a blue... Why? because I spent an insane ammount of time watching vids and working on the little details, and by trial and mistake I got pretty good at the positions... hes mostly a gi guy, trains with luck 1 time a month no gi, of course he knows how to do a proper RNC, but there are minor details that make the attack work, that he is not used to use them or directly doesnt know them, and since he trains mostly in the gi he rarely has the chance to work on that position... at the same time, he still smokes me alive in the gi and his strong positions are very very good. This is not only my case, at least in my country, I know guys that are much better than their black belts, why? simple they are extremely good at some positions, although their game is not as wide as probably the game of the black... and why is that? just like my case, they have spent much more time in some positions than their blacks, is not rocket science whos going to be better at something... the guy spending lots of time working on some stuff or the guy that hasnt, despite the color of the belt hes wearing.

again, unless you are under some world class coach, there is a very good chance that you could be learning much better stuff or getting much better at certain stuff at your own...and in case you have limited time, well, I believe it will be better spent working in some stuff you may be specially interested at the time...

 

[JWNewOrleans]

I do totally agree with that.You can learn a lot from instructionals, videos, and putting adequate effort into drilling them at home or wherever, but you cannot learn it all. The difference between something working and not working can be very small and hard to realize just from watching a video and trying to replicate it. That's where having an actual instructor and a class enviroment can take you to that next level

 

[BJJ_Rage]

I do totally agree with that.You can learn a lot from instructionals, videos, and putting adequate effort into drilling them at home or wherever, but you cannot learn it all. The difference between something working and not working can be very small and hard to realize just from watching a video and trying to replicate it. That's where having an actual instructor and a class enviroment can take you to that next level

you need all of that, of course.

 

[Uchi Mata]

bro, I agree, but your case is extreme.... it took andre galvao to show you what you were missing, wasnt your coach seeing you made the same move over and over again ? if you been working on that move in your gym, I would assume that youve been watched by your coach, still it took galvao to correct you, see my point? im not saying learing online replaces a world class coach, or that you dont need to be look by your local coach... but there is time where your instructor knowledge is just not enough, his technique is miles away from the techinque you could be learning directly from rafa andre or marcelo online? how could he correct your mistakes if he doesnt even know whats wrong? for him to be able to correct the little mistakes that are probably making the difference between working and not working he has to know those little details, and bro, not every black belt knows them... I still go look for my coach to teach me stuff hes good at, much better than me, and for some basic sounded mistakes I still make as a purple, but theres stuff that he has just no clue about it, because is not part of his game so he may know the position but not to a fully extend... hes just a human being. On the other hand, my drilling partner could be giving me feed backs on why is not working the position, we can drill the position with progressive resistance etc etc, till it works. Just because my fellow purple does not wear a black belt doesnt mean hes not better than the black belt in class in that particular position... specially if he is obsess with the position...For example, im technically much better at back attacks (no gi) than my black belt instructor, I was better when I was a blue... Why? because I spent an insane ammount of time watching vids and working on the little details, and by trial and mistake I got pretty good at the positions... hes mostly a gi guy, trains with luck 1 time a month no gi, of course he knows how to do a proper RNC, but there are minor details that make the attack work, that he is not used to use them or directly doesnt know them, and since he trains mostly in the gi he rarely has the chance to work on that position... at the same time, he still smokes me alive in the gi and his strong positions are very very good. This is not only my case, at least in my country, I know guys that are much better than their black belts, why? simple they are extremely good at some positions, although their game is not as wide as probably the game of the black... and why is that? just like my case, they have spent much more time in some positions than their blacks, is not rocket science whos going to be better at something... the guy spending lots of time working on some stuff or the guy that hasnt, despite the color of the belt hes wearing.

again, unless you are under some world class coach, there is a very good chance that you could be learning much better stuff or getting much better at certain stuff at your own...and in case you have limited time, well, I believe it will be better spent working in some stuff you may be specially interested at the time...

My coach doesn't watch my drilling sessions. I have a key, and I run a lot of stuff myself. But it's not a move I think he's very familiar with, so I was lucky to get Galvao to show it to me. Though I did mention in the last post that I learned it off of MendesBrosOnline, so I think you maybe missed my point about how the online instructional failed me whereas the in person instruction helped.

Now we've gotten into an argument about the merits of online vs. in person instruction for advanced students, which was not really my intent because I think both approaches have a lot of value. Returning to the original point, if TS is relying a lot on the rubber guard to the exclusion of what his instructor is teaching, he shouldn't be surprised that his instructor is somewhat annoyed by this and tries to take an active hand in his development, as that is a big part of what instructors are there for. At the same time, if he really wants to work 10th Planet stuff and his instructor thinks it's BS then he should find a different gym.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

My coach doesn't watch my drilling sessions. I have a key, and I run a lot of stuff myself. But it's not a move I think he's very familiar with, so I was lucky to get Galvao to show it to me. Though I did mention in the last post that I learned it off of MendesBrosOnline, so I think you maybe missed my point about how the online instructional failed me whereas the in person instruction helped.

Now we've gotten into an argument about the merits of online vs. in person instruction for advanced students, which was not really my intent because I think both approaches have a lot of value. Returning to the original point, if TS is relying a lot on the rubber guard to the exclusion of what his instructor is teaching, he shouldn't be surprised that his instructor is somewhat annoyed by this and tries to take an active hand in his development, as that is a big part of what instructors are there for. At the same time, if he really wants to work 10th Planet stuff and his instructor thinks it's BS then he should find a different gym.

no I didnt, all I said it took andre galvao to correct your mistake, and since you told me your coach isnt very familiar with that position, I would guess he wouldnt be able to corrected it..., and that was my point all along, UNLESS YOU HAVE A WORLD CLASS COACH, it doesnt need to be andre, may be just another high level coach, which is really not the norm outside brazil and the US, you may be fine, but most likely, he wont be enough to know all positions and correct them all, now your drilling partner whos been watching the vid with you and drilling the positions, will probably be in a much better position to correct those mistakes you are making...

I respect your view, we just have different views based on our own experiences, thats all.

 

[NateTx4112]

bro, I agree, but your case is extreme....

again, unless you are under some world class coach, there is a very good chance that you could be learning much better stuff or getting much better at certain stuff at your own...and in case you have limited time, well, I believe it will be better spent working in some stuff you may be specially interested at the time...

No his case is not extreme. I don't train under a black belt mundials adult champ...but yet he can point out things I am missing as a 4 stripe purple pretty damn quickly.

My coach will also tell me what to work on that he sees are holes in my game that I cannot see as objectively while rolling. Sit out with an injury for a few weeks (like I am) and watch people roll you normally roll with. I'm seeing what they do well, and where there gaps are to exploit when I return. These are guys I roll with 4 times a week for 3+ years and it's different when you view it from a distance. If it were me I'd work on certain things that interest me and not ever learn RDLR....but since coach made me work on RDLR for a 3 week block, I added it to my game and it's really helped me counter the knee slide pass 2 guys have killed me with for a while.

As anything under a seasoned brown belt...you need the feedback and guidance. You do NOT have the foresight to see your holes because you don't realize how big some of them are yet.

SRS question - how long have you been a purple?

 

[BJJ_Rage]

No his case is not extreme. I don't train under a black belt mundials adult champ...but yet he can point out things I am missing as a 4 stripe purple pretty damn quickly.

My coach will also tell me what to work on that he sees are holes in my game that I cannot see as objectively while rolling. Sit out with an injury for a few weeks (like I am) and watch people roll you normally roll with. I'm seeing what they do well, and where there gaps are to exploit when I return. These are guys I roll with 4 times a week for 3+ years and it's different when you view it from a distance. If it were me I'd work on certain things that interest me and not ever learn RDLR....but since coach made me work on RDLR for a 3 week block, I added it to my game and it's really helped me counter the knee slide pass 2 guys have killed me with for a while.

As anything under a seasoned brown belt...you need the feedback and guidance. You do NOT have the foresight to see your holes because you don't realize how big some of them are yet.

SRS question - how long have you been a purple?

you dont need to be a black belt world mundial to be a world class coach... your view of the world seems extremely narrow. Im glad you are training with someone that can correct your mistakes even as a 4 stripe purple, not every black belt is like that, SPECIALLY outside and BRAZIL and the US (which for christ sakes its been my point all along!)

seasoned brown is a black belt in and by a long term in some parts of the world, seasoned purple in the US in a good academy will smoke in technique and rolling skills most hobbist black belts outside the US or Brazil... the color of the belt is a really subjective thing, you could be a brown belt in some places, or a black or a purple, it just depends where you are at.

Ive been a purple for 4 moths I think, been grappling for over 5 years.

by the way, Ive never said you dont need guidance, yes you do, of course, and feedback, but as I said, you can hardly get good feedback in some stuff you instructor doesnt know all that well. And guidance, of course, he could guide you and you should look for advice and talk to him about whats going on and how you feel on your game, he may and could give you advice on what to look for... but do you think he would be giving regular class just becasue you need to go some direction? like you, theres probably 10 cases at the same time, one guy needs to work on his spider, one guy needs to work on his half, one guy needs to work on his mount, and you need to work on your dlr... your time at the gym will be much better spent working on stuff you need to work at the moment... whether that be from stuff you colected online or stuff you asked your coach to teach you...

 

[NateTx4112]

You have been grappling for over 5 years...we are at the same point in development. But I realize that what I want to focus on is not always the best use of my time. My coach makes me drill basics like digging for the underhook when I'd rather be working my xpass...coaches need to help guide you longer than you realize is what i'm saying. You have a narrow view on the other end of the spectrum in my opinion.

Neither is necessairly wrong, just different vantage points is all.