Using Rubber Guard/Bravo stuff in a non-10th planet gym that isn't supportive?

[JWNewOrleans]

I agree with you, but if the coach sees something he think isn't right for the guy or something he personally doesn't believe is effective, he should be giving feedback and instruction as to why. Just saying, "Don't do that stuff, I don't like it", is not constructive. If a coach feels like that his reaction should be, "here let me show you why I don't use "Y", it leads to "X" or it is easily countered by "Z".

 

[BJJ_Rage]

I didn't say TS was guilty of that, but only that an instructor could have this perception of it since its not something he includes or has drilled in his curriculum. One person's perception of an event is not always the fact of the matter, but we have to still understand why someone might view something in some fashion regardless. I merely suggested that his instructor's perception of the situation may be what I described but not necessarily the truth.

ah ok...

I know some instructors that make funny of people learning online, its actually one guy, he refuses to go online and rather teaches stuff he learned about 10 years ago when his first instructor left the country. Lets just say his jiu jitsu its pretty bad... Hes also convince that the details are not taught online, those secret details are only taught from instructor to student bla bla bla, im like oooook...

 

[Balto]

As far as guys letting go of moves that don't work: I've seen plenty of counterexamples. I train with a few of them several times per week.

For an obvious counterexample, see Ari. How long has that guy been doing this stuff professionally? Yet his stuff seems to get worse if anything. After all these years, he still hasn't learned to let go apparently.

Ari disease is more common than people think. The reason Ari is notable is because most people with this disease don't try to be black belt YouTube sensations. Usually they are just the eternal blue belts who never seem to get better, and they justify it with a million excuses that miss the core of the problem: they never actually change anything about their game because they never listen to anyone but themselves.

 

[Balto]

I agree with you, but if the coach sees something he think isn't right for the guy or something he personally doesn't believe is effective, he should be giving feedback and instruction as to why. Just saying, "Don't do that stuff, I don't like it", is not constructive. If a coach feels like that his reaction should be, "here let me show you why I don't use "Y", it leads to "X" or it is easily countered by "Z".

Yeah for sure. If the coach is good, he probably already did that though.

Like I said, I've seen this many times. It is actually pretty common in BJJ. Guys just actively resist coaching for whatever reason, which I find ridiculous since they pay a ton of money to have a coach in the first place. It's not like BJJ is super cheap. This costs thousands of dollars.

I've seen guys that stuck with stuff that wasn't working and nobody ever thought was going to work if they didn't change. Coach explained in detail all the reasons why it wasn't good. They didn't listen. They just kept making the same mistakes. Eventually the coach tunes them out and just ignores them. They just keep making the same mistakes, nobody helps them because they don't want to listen, they stagnate, they get frustrated, and they blame the gym. Then they leave the gym and go somewhere else.

Guess what happens when I run into them years down the line? They are still doing the same stuff that doesn't work, and it doesn't work at the new gym either. I'm not their coach so I don't really care, but if I were earning my livelihood under the charge to make them progress, yeah I could see that being frustrating.

 

[JWNewOrleans]

Yea I haven't come in contact with a lot of that but I can definitely see how that would be frustrating as a coach

 

[Balto]

Yea I haven't come in contact with a lot of that but I can definitely see how that would be frustrating as a coach

I've trained seriously at three different gyms, and there always seems to be at least one guy that fits the bill.

A lot of gyms the teacher won't even bother to try to correct it though because I think at most gyms, the teacher plays the role of instructor rather than coach. I don't like these gyms as much though because, as pointed out earlier in this thread, if I just wanted some instruction, I'd just look online. I already do. When I want to learn something specific, I look it up online just like everyone else.

Paying like $2000+/year for that seems insane to me. I pay that premium to have a coach.

Even though I've been training for ten years, having a coach is still really valuable to me. I don't actually know everything, and surprise surprise, I can't always tell what I'm doing wrong when I'm rolling. Sometimes I can, but sometimes I can't. That's when having the coach comes in handy to pull me aside and say "Hey, I know you think that what you are doing is a good idea, but I've been watching you, and every time you do that you are getting caught the same way every time. You need to change that."

After having worked with my coach for so long, I just trust his judgment on these things at this point and give it a try. He doesn't tell me this stuff if it's not important. Listening to the advice almost always works out better for me. Again, that's why I pay him.

 

[thugpoet]

What people don't understand is that your not obligated to do what they teach. Your paying to use that time as you see fit. As long as your not a problem to the class then I don't see a problem

 

[Uchi Mata]

What people don't understand is that your not obligated to do what they teach. Your paying to use that time as you see fit. As long as your not a problem to the class then I don't see a problem

If you see going to class as just paying for time using the mat you're missing the point. Just buy some mats and train with your friends, it'll be a lot cheaper in the long run. And if a guy is coming and working stuff completely unrelated to the gym curriculum it's always a problem, because it inherently undermines the coach.

I mean, think about this in the context of any other sport. If you went to a basketball practice and just ignored everything the coach tried to get you to do, you think it would just slide? Absolutely not, you'd get called out in a second. Yes, you're paying for instruction and you have the absolute right to go to whatever gym you want for that instruction. But when you are at a gym you're paying for a service, and the terms of that service delivery are not only up to you. Business is always two sided, both parties have obligations and in addition to payment I think one of your obligations when you go to a BJJ gym is to try and learn the curriculum the instructor is teaching. If you don't like it you should leave for a different gym, not undermine the curriculum by working your Youtube-jitsu.

 

[Balto]

What people don't understand is that your not obligated to do what they teach. Your paying to use that time as you see fit. As long as your not a problem to the class then I don't see a problem

Nor is the coach obligated to accept you as a student. It has to be mutually beneficial to both parties. It's not just the student that needs to be cool with things. It is a two way street of respect and understanding.

If it were my gym, I would just tell someone who was actively opposed to my coaching to go train somewhere else. Of course I don't run one, so that doesn't really matter.

But I do know of several gyms where the coach just isn't interested in having you as a student if you're not going to even attempt to listen to the coaching. It causes frustration and a bad vibe.

There are also plenty of gyms that have an instructor, not a coach, and they typically are not nearly as invested in the student's individual progress. They just show techniques and provide a mat. The rest they consider none of their business. Those gyms are a better fit for guys who want to be their own coaches.

 

[Kenny from MD]

What people don't understand is that your not obligated to do what they teach. Your paying to use that time as you see fit. As long as your not a problem to the class then I don't see a problem

Where did you get that idea? If i own a gym, you are not allowed to do whatever you want in it. And if you'd refuse to follow the rules at my gym, you'd be pointed towards the door.

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

If you're just gonna go to a school and do whatever you want and disregard instruction given to you, then you may as well just stay home and roll in your basement with your bros. TS isn't doing this surely but some others seem to think this way.

 

[ozyabbas]

I think that a high blue or purple belt and up can start directing their own learning with the advice from their coach to help them shape an adaptive game particular to them. Its how Cicero Costa runs his gym. Becoming a clone of ur instructor doesnt allow for innovation.

Anything below a high blue wont know enough to direct their own training and wont have learned the core concepts that underlie techniques.

An example of where this goes wrong is a blue belt i know who resents it when I correct his really bad advice he gives out to other blue belts and white belts.

 

[Balto]

If you're just gonna go to a school and do whatever you want and disregard instruction given to you, then you may as well just stay home and roll in your basement with your bros. TS isn't doing this surely but some others seem to think this way.

What drives me crazy is when guys switch gyms and do this immediately. I get to see this happen a lot.

My gym is affiliated with a big name team right now. So we get a decent amount of guys switching gyms.

I always ask them why they switched. Sometimes there are other reasons, but usually it's because they felt like they weren't getting better where they were at previously. So they figured that they heard we were supposed to be pretty good, so if they switch, they will get better.

Okay. That's a legit reason to switch in my book. Welcome to the gym.

Right away when they start training, it's apparent that there are some things they are doing that need to be fixed if they are going to take it to the next level. Those things are communicated pretty clearly.

Then the guys actively fight it and seem angry that they are being told what to do. I thought that was the point of switching in the first place? To do something different now so that you don't keep doing the same thing again and again with the same result? It makes no sense to me. Sometimes the guy falls in line, and sometimes the guy just leaves again.

The "I'm a rational adult" thing holds a lot less in reality than it does on here. A rational adult would not switch gyms to make a change for the better, and then get pissed off when he is asked to change something for the better. Yet it happens all the time.

 

[Einarr]

A lot of new students get caught up in this Eddie Bravo stuff and fail to develop the rest of their game. They find it works great on their fellow newbies then hit a brickwall against decent blue belts and purples who aren't clueless and won't just let their posture get totally broken down - they find they pretty much have to relearn guard and that they've also neglected top game and passing too. That's why BJJ instructors tend to discourage newbs from learning 10th Planet stuff, at least early on.

 

[SummerStriker]

^^ Lots of people do martial arts, leg days, and fight for no reason other than they are insecure. That insecurity quickly turns into hubris as soon as they are skilled enough to go even with someone else who is known as experienced.

The same kind of mental habits in fighters that switch gyms and won't change is there in Gracie university blue belts or strip mall TKD black belts who believe TKD is the shit all by itself.

The only difference between them is their work ethic or their beliefs about fighting from before they started training.

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

A lot of new students get caught up in this Eddie Bravo stuff and fail to develop the rest of their game. They find it works great on their fellow newbies then hit a brickwall against decent blue belts and purples who aren't clueless and won't just let their posture get totally broken down - they find they pretty much have to relearn guard and that they've also neglected top game and passing too. That's why BJJ instructors tend to discourage newbs from learning 10th Planet stuff, at least early on.

BOOM thank you. That is what I was trying to say but failed. I would not in the least be surprised if TS instructor's feelings are exactly what you said.

 

[brendan raedy]

A lot of new students get caught up in this Eddie Bravo stuff and fail to develop the rest of their game. They find it works great on their fellow newbies then hit a brickwall against decent blue belts and purples who aren't clueless and won't just let their posture get totally broken down - they find they pretty much have to relearn guard and that they've also neglected top game and passing too. That's why BJJ instructors tend to discourage newbs from learning 10th Planet stuff, at least early on.

You also have a lot of blue and purple belts these days that can berminbolo but don't know how to escape mount or do a double leg.

Rubber guard is not the only series of moves or position that works on blue and purple belts and then students start having difficulty at brown belt.

 

[FlexLuthor]

If the guys instructor is simply discouraging him from pursuing this interest with no explanation why... Then he's a shit instructor.

My coaches try to steer me towards more fundamental and well fitting pieces of game for myself... But they never discourage me from exploring new positions. Unless its clearly worthless.

Sounds like this guy's gym and a lot of you are pretty close minded.

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

If the guys instructor is simply discouraging him from pursuing this interest with no explanation why... Then he's a shit instructor.

My coaches try to steer me towards more fundamental and well fitting pieces of game for myself... But they never discourage me from exploring new positions. Unless its clearly worthless.

Sounds like this guy's gym and a lot of you are pretty close minded.

We only have the TS's perception of the situation and there's two sides to every story.

 

[Balto]

If the guys instructor is simply discouraging him from pursuing this interest with no explanation why... Then he's a shit instructor.

My coaches try to steer me towards more fundamental and well fitting pieces of game for myself... But they never discourage me from exploring new positions. Unless its clearly worthless.

Sounds like this guy's gym and a lot of you are pretty close minded.

It's not close minded to be based in reality.

Atos is probably one of the most innovative teams in BJJ. I mean they have been at the vanguard of a whole new BJJ paradigm for the past five years or so.

Those guys have a system that works, and they mostly stick to it until something better comes along. You don't see much rubber guard out of them. They discourage it as far as I can tell.

Why is that? Is it that they are close minded? Or is it that they just realize that it's not the best option?

Here is the difference: if you look at the stuff Atos mainly teaches, you will see it used repeatedly, with success, at the highest levels of BJJ. When was the last time you saw rubber guard used there?

There is a difference between being open minded and just fantasizing. The rubber guard revolution was supposed to happen a decade ago. It didn't.

For all the talk of "let the mat sort it out", I'm pretty sure the mat already did years ago. Yet some guys still cling to it for reasons I do not fully understand.