Using Rubber Guard/Bravo stuff in a non-10th planet gym that isn't supportive?

[Balto]

If you are talking about guys "killing it" at the black belt level you are talking a very small handful of 6-10 people. People who often switch from team to team, including many you mentioned, or form their own with already established competitors.

I think the majority of your time should be spent drilling the most successful moves at black belt level, but the game would never evolve if people didn't try to bring new stuff into it, and that doesn't happen over night.

Sure it does not happen overnight. But several new evolutions have come and gone in the time since the rubber guard got wide exposure. They did not happen overnight, but they sure happened a lot faster and more definitively.

I mean Mastering the Rubber Guard was what, 2004? Since then we've had 50/50, deep half, the berimbolo, leg drag passing, RDLR, double guard pull, the Marcelotine, etc. All of those have been more successful generally.

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

Yeah I was surprised too. Maybe that was just the days he went or something. But he said style wise, Eddie's gym was nearly indistinguishable from a regular BJJ gym.

He's also been to a lot of 10P affiliate gyms (guy just goes to a lot of gyms period), and he said Eddie was a lot less focused on the flashy stuff than the guys running 10P satellites in random cities who only see him for the occasional seminar.

Overall he was just real positive about Eddie the person and seemed to think that he was quite different in reality than Eddie the BJJ personality is perceived to be.

As often is the case in life. The celebrity is always a bigger myth than the person.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

If you're just gonna go to a school and do whatever you want and disregard instruction given to you, then you may as well just stay home and roll in your basement with your bros. TS isn't doing this surely but some others seem to think this way.

it will probably the same thing if you are rolling with higher and lower belts, if you are in your home with a bunch of bodies, then it will never be the same. It is not rare for guys to form extra curricular drilling classes, where do you think most of the learning is coming from? the regular class or the extra drilling classes?

 

[brendan raedy]

Sure it does not happen overnight. But several new evolutions have come and gone in the time since the rubber guard got wide exposure. They did not happen overnight, but they sure happened a lot faster and more definitively.

I mean Mastering the Rubber Guard was what, 2004? Since then we've had 50/50, deep half, the berimbolo, leg drag passing, RDLR, double guard pull, the Marcelotine, etc. All of those have been more successful generally.

Well I think part of that is that the rules of sport BJJ give your opponent an advantage for flattening you out from half guard, and the rubber guard requires a great deal of flexibility. More often flexibility acquired from lots of stretching rather than the type some folks are born with.

Most entries to rubber guard will be from closed guard, whereas sport BJJ has gravitated toward half guard and similar positions for the most part.

Beyond that, there are simply far less people that understand the 10th Planet system (at least the most famous positions) as compared to even modern competitive BJJ.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

I've trained seriously at three different gyms, and there always seems to be at least one guy that fits the bill.

A lot of gyms the teacher won't even bother to try to correct it though because I think at most gyms, the teacher plays the role of instructor rather than coach. I don't like these gyms as much though because, as pointed out earlier in this thread, if I just wanted some instruction, I'd just look online. I already do. When I want to learn something specific, I look it up online just like everyone else.

Paying like $2000+/year for that seems insane to me. I pay that premium to have a coach.

Even though I've been training for ten years, having a coach is still really valuable to me. I don't actually know everything, and surprise surprise, I can't always tell what I'm doing wrong when I'm rolling. Sometimes I can, but sometimes I can't. That's when having the coach comes in handy to pull me aside and say "Hey, I know you think that what you are doing is a good idea, but I've been watching you, and every time you do that you are getting caught the same way every time. You need to change that."

After having worked with my coach for so long, I just trust his judgment on these things at this point and give it a try. He doesn't tell me this stuff if it's not important. Listening to the advice almost always works out better for me. Again, that's why I pay him.

if I was paying 2000 US$ the fuck I would want a coach not an instructor... the only problem is that you are seeing this from ONE perspective, which is to have a great black belt around, reality is, NOT every black belt is the same...

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Where did you get that idea? If i own a gym, you are not allowed to do whatever you want in it. And if you'd refuse to follow the rules at my gym, you'd be pointed towards the door.

its actually not a bad idea... but its up to the instructor to give permission to X tipe of students to work on something they are interested in...

although, If I was ryans student, theres probably no need for that.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

I think that a high blue or purple belt and up can start directing their own learning with the advice from their coach to help them shape an adaptive game particular to them. Its how Cicero Costa runs his gym. Becoming a clone of ur instructor doesnt allow for innovation.

Anything below a high blue wont know enough to direct their own training and wont have learned the core concepts that underlie techniques.

An example of where this goes wrong is a blue belt i know who resents it when I correct his really bad advice he gives out to other blue belts and white belts.

this.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

I believe the RG its quite useful for MMA, not so much for just grappling

 

[dokomoy]

Sure it does not happen overnight. But several new evolutions have come and gone in the time since the rubber guard got wide exposure. They did not happen overnight, but they sure happened a lot faster and more definitively.

I mean Mastering the Rubber Guard was what, 2004? Since then we've had 50/50, deep half, the berimbolo, leg drag passing, RDLR, double guard pull, the Marcelotine, etc. All of those have been more successful generally.

Yea I agree with this. X-Guard and Rubber Guard where introduced to the world at the same time(ADCC 2003) and I can only think of a few guys who used rubber guard(and even fewer who use lockdown) at a high level since then I can think of tons of guys who use x-guard as part of their game. Not all techniques and positions are equally valid and at some point you have to look at the evidence, and to me the evidence is pretty clear that 10th planet stuff just isn't as good as a lot of the other stuff being used in competition these days.

On an unrelated note, it's worth pointing out that a lot of the criticism of 10th planet stuff isn't based on how successful it's been in competition, but on how it works in the context of basic jiu jitsu principles. I trained with Jean Jacques Machado for close to 3 years and he never taught any 10th planet stuff, not because nobody was using it in competition but because he thought a lot of those techniques required too much flexibility or limited hip mobility or whatever. And I think a lot of the criticism of 10th planet falls along similar lines.

 

[Balto]

Well I think part of that is that the rules of sport BJJ give your opponent an advantage for flattening you out from half guard, and the rubber guard requires a great deal of flexibility. More often flexibility acquired from lots of stretching rather than the type some folks are born with.

Most entries to rubber guard will be from closed guard, whereas sport BJJ has gravitated toward half guard and similar positions for the most part.

Beyond that, there are simply far less people that understand the 10th Planet system (at least the most famous positions) as compared to even modern competitive BJJ.

Yes, the rules dictate what is effective. But if we are doing grappling, then it should be effective within the rules, right? I mean most modern BJJ guards are close to useless in Judo considering the different rules.

Rubber guard was also supposed to dominate in an MMA ruleset, but again it did not really take off like it was supposed to.

 

[Balto]

if I was paying 2000 US$ the fuck I would want a coach not an instructor... the only problem is that you are seeing this from ONE perspective, which is to have a great black belt around, reality is, NOT every black belt is the same...

Sure. But then why would you switch from to a gym where the instructor is trying to be a coach just to actively go against it? Would it not make more sense to just stay at the old gym where you could just do whatever you wanted?

There are more than enough do whatever you want gyms to go around. It does not make sense to pay a guy to actively oppose him. Just find a guy who does not care. Or make your own group so you can do things your own way.

 

[brendan raedy]

Yes, the rules dictate what is effective. But if we are doing grappling, then it should be effective within the rules, right? I mean most modern BJJ guards are close to useless in Judo considering the different rules.

Rubber guard was also supposed to dominate in an MMA ruleset, but again it did not really take off like it was supposed to.

Well, I think a lot of people take issue with advantages of late. You might see more lockdown half guard work, at least offensively, if you were not giving your opponent an advantage to get there.

Full guard in general has not taken off in MMA like it was supposed to. Stand ups, the cage, rounds, etc have all seen to that.

 

[Zankou]

For me it's relatively simple, Eddie has popularized a couple of moves that have decent utility in some narrow contexts and done a ton of marketing/books/instructionals based on them. Result, people who don't train at 10th planet think that playing "rubber guard" is a great way to get an edge on other grapplers.

This is wrong for multiple reasons. Rubber guard is just an overhook attack series. It's a solid closed guard line of attack, but just one of many. If you don't have multiple different high-level closed guard lines of attack, you have no business playing closed guard. By line of attack, I mean a way of seizing a dominating angle and working from there. Rubber guard is one such angle, but so is a situp guard, an arm clamp, an arm drag, pendulum, etc. By prioritizing one line of attack as some kind of magical 'guard' that you are determined to play as your 'game,' you are basically killing your closed guard game. Particularly because rubber guard works best not when you are trying to force it but when you isolate that arm during the course of aggressive closed guard work.

The second problem is that grappling is not about goofy unorthodox moves that trick your opponent. It's about developing high power, high percentage, versatile moves. The worst thing you can possibly do in learning almost anything difficult is to try to take shortcuts.

 

[Balto]

Well, I think a lot of people take issue with advantages of late. You might see more lockdown half guard work, at least offensively, if you were not giving your opponent an advantage to get there.

Full guard in general has not taken off in MMA like it was supposed to. Stand ups, the cage, rounds, etc have all seen to that.

If the rules change, then you might see the strategies change too. Then what is winning at a high level will change, and people who follow along with that will start to change as well.

What won't change is the people who ignore the results and just stick with whatever they want to for different reasons.

The rules aren't well suited for it in grappling right now. Nor are they in MMA as you pointed out. It's not what I would consider much of a self-defense position.

If it's designed as a position for a game with specific rules, that game with those rules does not really exist.

 

[brendan raedy]

If the rules change, then you might see the strategies change too. Then what is winning at a high level will change, and people who follow along with that will start to change as well.

What won't change is the people who ignore the results and just stick with whatever they want to for different reasons.

The rules aren't well suited for it in grappling right now. Nor are they in MMA as you pointed out. It's not what I would consider much of a self-defense position.

If it's designed as a position for a game with specific rules, that game with those rules does not really exist.

A lot of people ignore results because they train jiu jitsu for self defense, to stay in shape, or to have fun. Not everyone wants to be a Mundial champion. I think most people are more concerned about winning their rolls in class, and trying interesting moves they are learning.

To the self defense point, if I am on bottom and someone is trying to punch me, I would rather be in lockdown half guard with double underhooks than reverse de la riva. In fact, within the current MMA rull set, I think you see a decent number of guys using lockdown half to stall for a stand up.

 

[NateTx4112]

My guess is most of people saying they should get to drill what they want are under the age of 27 and purple belt or lower. Just a hunch.

 

[SummerStriker]

My guess is most of people saying they should get to drill what they want are under the age of 27 and purple belt or lower. Just a hunch.

No one was ever taken seriously before the age of 30.

 

[NateTx4112]

No one was ever taken seriously before the age of 30.

Thank god I'm 30 now....

 

[BJJ_Rage]

My guess is most of people saying they should get to drill what they want are under the age of 27 and purple belt or lower. Just a hunch.

well, seems like cicero costha gives his classes that way (not sure though) so does Lloyd and both of them have a few black belts world champ under their banner...

 

[NateTx4112]

well, seems like cicero costha gives his classes that way (not sure though) so does Lloyd and both of them have a few black belts world champ under their banner...

Lloyd has what blackbelt world champ under his banner?

and these guys still attended regular classes (I talked with JT Torres twice while he was still at Lloyd's about how he trained) and on TOP of that had drilling classes/competition classes. So yes he did what he wanted but he ALSO did regular class too.