The year is 2006. Chuck Liddell vs Mirko Cro-Cop @ HW in Pride. Who wins?

[The Accuser]

wasteland by time travel

 

[Uncommon Valor]

Chuck > Overeem > Cro Cop.

 

[priderulez]

Not even close.

Crocop murders him. Better fighter, bigger fighter, favorable match up. This is a dumb question.

This is how I feel.

Fighting in Pride...plus considering that Chuck lost brutally to good strikers - Shogun, Page.

Shogun vs CC in 2005 is a lot closer match up imo.

 

[Ah Man]

I don't buy that excuse. He got hit with a big punch, dropped, and knocked out unconscious. Like I said, I'd favor Mirko but this is winnable for Liddell

What excuse? Cro Cop misread Randleman's movements, seconds after Randleman had just shot, and clearly dropped his hands to defend the takedown.

It was well set-up by Randleman. Cro Cop got knocked out because his defense lapsed against grapplers. A few years later I called Gonzaga a dangerous fight for him because Gonzaga was a similarly heavy-handed grappler with a powerful takedown. It's not a excuse. It's a hole in Cro Cop's game.

And if Chuck could threaten the takedown it's possible he could exploit it. But I doubt it, because for all of his wrestling Chuck was ever really much of a takedown threat, and didn't like to initiate. But it's not out of the question - Chuck was a great fighter. However, if Cro Cop can turn it into a kickboxing match he eats Chuck alive (or in the Octagon, possibly wins a pretty brutally boring fight stalking Chuck, avoiding counters, and landing kicks to the body).

 

[kimberland]

This one used to be talked about a lot, too. Tough call. In 06 I'd probably go with Chuck. But skip to 08 or so, and I'd probably go with Andy.

But at any point in their careers, Chuck could've just wrestled Andy down. And I know Hendo was a better wrestler than Chuck, and Hendo lost to Andy....but Chuck was a good bit bigger and stronger than Hendo. I think if he wanted to, Chuck coulda wrestlefucked/gnp'd Andy. But it's Chuck, so we all know he wouldn't want to win that way, he'd go for the ko. God bless him.

never seen Chuck Gand P anyone

 

[Redhawks100]

What excuse? Cro Cop misread Randleman's movements, seconds after Randleman had just shot, and clearly dropped his hands to defend the takedown.

It was well set-up by Randleman. Cro Cop got knocked out because his defense lapsed against grapplers. A few years later I called Gonzaga a dangerous fight for him because Gonzaga was a similarly heavy-handed grappler with a powerful takedown. It's not a excuse. It's a hole in Cro Cop's game.

And if Chuck could threaten the takedown it's possible he could exploit it. But I doubt it, because for all of his wrestling Chuck was ever really much of a takedown threat, and didn't like to initiate. But it's not out of the question - Chuck was a great fighter. However, if Cro Cop can turn it into a kickboxing match he eats Chuck alive (or in the Octagon, possibly wins a pretty brutally boring fight stalking Chuck, avoiding counters, and landing kicks to the body).

It's always used as a way to excuse CroCop getting knocked out. He was beaten on the feet by Randleman, and yes I agree with you that it shows a hole in Mirko's game.

Liddell was a decent wrestler, I think it could've been possible for him to mix it up and catch Mirko off guard. I'm just saying if they fought 10 times in their primes, I think Liddell would win a few of those.

 

[Ted Bundy]

Cro Cop slaughters Chuck

 

[Kick Strickland]

Not surprised by the answers in the thread so far but the outcome is a lot closer to 50/50.

Chuck in his prime only lost to guys who could beat him on both fronts. Better wrestlers + better strikers. And the wrestling only became a factor because he would eventually get tired after getting messed up a bit on the feet and then taken down and pounded on. Rampage 1, Randy 1, etc.

He didn't use his offensive wrestling against most of his competition not because he couldn't but because he didn't want to. He always said, always always always said that if he fought Wanderlei he'd take him down at least once and when the fight finally happened he did. He gave it up pretty quickly, he was mostly just doing it to prove he could. I'm pretty sure he'd take Crocop down at least once except with as weak as Crocop's control was in those days (Crocop defense = hold gloves, squeeze legs, look longingly at the ref) I'm not sure Chuck would let him off the hook so easily.

People also forget that Chuck's chin in his prime was legendary. He only lost it due to drugs (never proved but come on, Chuck partied and we saw the results on TV, let's not be naive here) and age. He was never actually knocked cold until he'd been washed up for awhile. It's not that Crocop couldn't knock him out it's that Chuck getting starched in 2006 would have been as big an upset as prime Hunt or prime Nog being starched. It just wasn't something that anyone thought could be done.

Crocop doesn't beat Chuck with a knockout kick. Prime Crocop was dangerous because of his hands. The main reason he looked bad in the UFC wasn't that he quit throwing kicks or the cage or unfamiliarity or PEDs it was that he quit throwing left hands with malice and seemed afraid to jab also. Prime Crocop lit guys up with his hands. Chuck probably would have eaten a whole bunch of leg kick, straight right, straight left combos unless he decided to try to catch the kick and drive through and we saw what happened when guys tried that against prime Crocop.

So really the fight comes down to Chuck's shovel punches and takedowns vs. Crocop's leg kicks and straight punches. Straight punches beat looping punches but Chuck's chin in 06 was considerably better than Crocop's.

Chuck by KO, 2nd round after extended control with a takedown in the 1st.

Very nice break down. I agree with most of what you said. And lol at CC holding on and looking longingly at the ref...it's funny because it's kind of true

But CC had legendary takedown defense. But another thing that's interesting about this fight is that Chuck also had legendary TDD. But yeah Chuck had a wrestling base, and COULD use it offensively, if he wanted. CC had pretty much zero wrestling, but great TDD.

But yeah this fight imo is closer than people are making it out to be.

Chuck was always comfortable dropping his hands and most the guys he fought couldn't take advantage of it. The ones that could knocked him out cold Mirko would have done the same.

Come on, Chuck fought Vitor, Overeem, Wand and Pele. All terrific strikers. And he beat them all.

 

[Kick Strickland]

What excuse? Cro Cop misread Randleman's movements, seconds after Randleman had just shot, and clearly dropped his hands to defend the takedown.

It was well set-up by Randleman. Cro Cop got knocked out because his defense lapsed against grapplers. A few years later I called Gonzaga a dangerous fight for him because Gonzaga was a similarly heavy-handed grappler with a powerful takedown. It's not a excuse. It's a hole in Cro Cop's game.

And if Chuck could threaten the takedown it's possible he could exploit it. But I doubt it, because for all of his wrestling Chuck was ever really much of a takedown threat, and didn't like to initiate. But it's not out of the question - Chuck was a great fighter. However, if Cro Cop can turn it into a kickboxing match he eats Chuck alive (or in the Octagon, possibly wins a pretty brutally boring fight stalking Chuck, avoiding counters, and landing kicks to the body).

Yeah I firmly believe that Randleman did exactly what Chuck did to him. Chuck was celebrating with Randleman in his corner that night, and you just know that he taught Kevin that tricky jab that snaps into a hook. It was smart of him to set it up with that takedown attempt first.

never seen Chuck Gand P anyone

Neither have I. Just saying that he could take Mirko down, just to make him have to watch out for more than strikes. And if Chuck managed to get Mirko down, even once, he would have to make him pay while on the ground, so that Mirko tries to avoid that shit like the plague for the rest of the fight. Basically making him "worry" about td's. That could lead to a Randleman-type setup like I talked about in the post above, where Chuck could land a bomb right on Mirko's chin. Mirko's chin has never been that good. His defense was, but if he did get hit, he usually got rocked. And Chuck had bricks for fists.

 

[RandomUser12]

Liddell is nowhere near as black or explosive as Randleman, either.

 

[moreorless87]

Everyone keeps bringing up Rampage but Mirko and Rampage fight nothing alike. Rampage spammed a lot of overhand punches and took Chuck down and battered him.

A lot of people seem forget that CroCop was knocked the fuck out by Randleman and murdered by Gonzaga in his prime.

I'd favor Mirko, but this is an entirely winnable fight for Prime Liddell.

Its winnable in the same way it was winnable for Wanderlei but an outside bet.

When people talk about Chuck/Rampage there talking about the second fight where Liddell got frustrated by his opponent not attacking and leaving an opening for counters, made a mistake and got KOed. Most likely the same would happen here accept Mirko wouldn't need the mistake, I think he could finish Chuck with kicks from mid range within a round.

Guys with a narrower game like Crocop that depends on peak performance are more vulnerable to being upset but equally I think his career shows just how tough the HW division was to remain undefeated in.

 

[Ever Watchful]

Cro Cop would have smashed Chuck.

 

[BreadnButter]

Cro Cop wins via head kick.

 

[Steveston]

I have to go with Mirko he has fought aggressive strikers before and it usually works out for him. No disrespect to Chuck but he didn't fight many strikers in his career and when he did he was on and off.

 

[fourtyounce48]

True, but we all saw what Randleman did to Mirko in their first fight. And you know who had been training with Randleman and was in his corner that night? Chuck. And that was after Chuck starched Randleman.




Yeah but that was like Chuck's 2nd pro fight. Against Pele. In Brazil. Just think about that. And Chuck STILL won. Just goes to show what a special fighter Chuck really was.

Randleman KO'd CC because of his constant feints of takedowns. CC was a bit distracted hence the surprise hook that KO'd CC. CC was too concerned with the takedown even though he had a great sprawl back in the day.

With no fear of being takendown, CC times his LHK into Liddel's head.

 

[Cake4Breakfast]

Would be interesting to see Chuck's strategy in that one

 

[fourtyounce48]

Come to think of it, when did Liddell ever look good against competent strikers? Overeem & especially Guy Mezger were making him look terrible, and I recall Belfort giving him the work before he inevitably gassed.

Hard puncher, but definitely not skilled outside of his wrestling ability. He only ever seemed to shine against grapplers that punched like they were under water.

Well said. That's the reason Dana often match him up with exclusively grapplers during his title run.

 

[Noraaq]

CroCop would have brutalized Chuck with leg kicks. Honestly, this is one of the worst possible matchups for the Iceman.

 

[Kick Strickland]

Well said. That's the reason Dana often match him up with exclusively grapplers during his title run.

misconception. yeah he fought a lot of grapplers, but that's what they had in the UFC at LHW. And if you think guys like Randy and even Tito wouldn't be dominate as hell in Pride, you're crazy. But Chuck did fight and beat some great strikers during his day.

Come to think of it, when did Liddell ever look good against competent strikers? Overeem & especially Guy Mezger were making him look terrible,

I thought Chuck made Overeem and Mezger look pretty terrible when he brutally smashed them unconscious

and I recall Belfort giving him the work before he inevitably gassed.

We all remember Chuck knocking Vitor square on his butt. And I can't ever find a gif of it, but at one point Chuck jump spinning side kicked Vitor perfectly in his liver. It was beautiful. And it was against one of the most lethal strikers ever in the sport.

 

[Goodfella86]

Well said. That's the reason Dana often match him up with exclusively grapplers during his title run.

that's inaccurate. Dana didn't do that. I'm not trying to single you out, but I see ridiculous statements like this often regarding Dana. Chuck fought Couture (won the belt), Horn, Couture, Babalu, Tito, Quinton (lost it). Every fighter was the absolute top contender in the UFC, except for Horn.

Horn may not have been the most deserving challenger, but he was red-hot at the time. I'm not gonna deny that they probably put this fight together to give Chuck a clean slate in the UFC (only RAndy and Horn had defeated Chuck inside the octagon). But they had few options. It's similar to how, in a jam before PRIDE 24 with Fedor being injured, they replaced Fedor with Hendo in the main event because Hendo was the only guy to beat Nog. It wasn't the best, but it was sufficient.

Tito was out of the UFC at the time of the fight and was probably in the middle of negotiations to do TUF after seeing the first two seasons.

I'm pretty sure Vitor wasn't under contract anyway, but even if he was, he had just lost 3 fights to Couture, Tito, and Overeem.

Franklin went down to MW and won the belt.

Randy had just lost to Chuck and was given a rebound fight with Van Arsdale to set up the rubber match.