Law THE POLICE SHOOTING/USE OF FORCE MEGATHREAD: discussions to determine if justified or not

[Poon Goon]

I feel like @Via Heeto is only trying to hurt bear man’s feelings in here now

 

[Via Heeto]

I feel like @Via Heeto is only trying to hurt bear man’s feelings in here now

now you went and did it. He is going to write you a 5000 word response it which he denies his feelings are hurt and then tell you a story about how he rescued a cat from a tree even though it was in a shithole known as Cleveland because he was just that great of a cop

 

[oldshadow]

Well, I actually agree that there were many other options, but that’s the thing with law enforcement is that there are many right answers as well as many wrong answers or solutions to each scenario. For example, I think those officers should have cut him off using their vehicles. Box him in but goodness sake, keep the cruiser between you and this guy.

I would have chosen different tactics for sure, but that doesn’t make the decision to use deadly force to confront a person armed with a deadly weapon that has already committed felonious assault.

What’s funny is watching @Joshuaace @Via Heeto make complete asses of themselves and watching heeto come unraveled is like watching a train wreck. You feel awful for continuing to gawk at the carnage, but you can’t look away.

Josh has contradicted himself several times and stupidly bolstered my argument thinking he was refuting me. He claims the officers purposely baited Vargas into throwing the brick or attacking with the brick just so they could shoot him because that’s what they wanted to do.

He also claimed that Vargas threw the brick in self defense because the officers illegally and against policy had guns drawn and he must have feared for his own life, which is why he threw the brick. I guess that female caller must have caused him to fear for his own life as well since he threatened her with the brick.

He also claimed the officers violated department and state policies by not de-escalating the situation, but when I proved him wrong, he fell back on “well, he probably doesn’t speak or understand English.” So I guess a guy living in this country where the majority of people speak English even though we have no official language, had never heard the word “stop” and didn’t comprender(Spanish for comprehend) or entiendo (Spanish for understand). And he definitely, because not knowing English, didn’t comprehend the drawn guns pointed at him in a universal language of “don’t fucking attack us or we will shoot you.”

Josh also claims that the officers were required to use less lethal options before drawing guns. That’s assuming they had those options on them, but even if they did, in no way does an officer have to first try less lethal when dealing with a violent person armed with a deadly weapon.

Then he also claimed that a brick was not a deadly weapon. When I posted three brick fatality cases, he claimed I had to search long and hard to find those. Nope, wrong. It took me about two mins to search and pick the first three I came across. It took me longer to post the links than it did to find them. He also claimed that I could only find three and I had to use other parts of the world. Wrong again. I had to rule some out because they were thrown bricks at moving vehicles. I know of one I didn’t even use where the brick went through the windshield and killed the person but there are also incidents of the brick through the window caused people to crash and die. And the best part is I don’t even have to search for murders caused by bricks. All I had to do to justify the use of firearms is to point out that getting hit with a brick can cause serious injury, which is part of the definition of deadly force, which is any force that can cause serious injury or death. How do police officers respond to someone with a weapon that can cause serious injury or death? By using their own deadly force options. I cited Supreme Court cases but he continues to say that I am wrong and department policy supersedes Supreme Court case law:

Then there’s heeto. He is losing so badly that he has accused me of planting evidence, putting people in jail to rot, violating rights, was forced to retire because of misconduct, terrorized my community, claims I hated my community, and the kicker is that he believes that I have murdered people in the past.

I'm not am expert but have some training. I'm sure there were other ways to handle this, there always is.

However like I said their first priority was protection of the public and and shooting was justified.

 

[nhbbear]

i am unhinged? i write a couple of sentences. you write responses that are the length of a novel desperately trying to convince people you are not a bad cop. As for the retirement, it was nice of your department to allow you to retire that way instead of losing it like you, i, and everyone else knows you should have.

on the awards thread, i simply nominated you and made one sentence. get over it Barney

as for cleveland, now you are back to shitting on the entire city again. make up your mind. i don't care if you shit on it. hell, it IS a shithole. difference is, i am not a cop. i don't have the life of people in my hands. Imagine being some mom innocently passing through your city and getting pulled over by you for going 3 mph over. you look at the license, see she is from cleveland and proceed to plant stuff on her since you assume they are all dirtbags anyway.

point is the world is a better place now that you are not terrorizing innocent people Lt. Pickles

Yep. You’re unhinged. You are so gotten to that you’ve made up some fantasy about all my supposed crimes. After you called me a murderer and accused me of a bunch of other ridiculous shit and when I made fun of how idiotic that is you backpedaled and said you never said that and you claimed you said “probably” but now you’re back to claiming these things are true with absolutely zero legitimacy in your claims. You’re so desperate to try and defame me that you make up lies, which is ridiculously pathetic. It started with your notion that I defend dirty cops and just kept getting stranger and more unhinged. At least ace tries to argue about a case. He’s doing very poorly, but at least he is trying without making shit up.


It’s funny that you have some gotcha moment because I said Cleveland is a shithole. Again, sixth most dangerous and crime ridden city in the entire country. Me calling it a shithole for legitimate reasons somehow makes me a dirty cop. lol.

And yes, I write a lot. I am not a lazy hack and when you have knowledge, actual, legitimate knowledge of a topic and you want to make a legitimate argument about a topic, you do so thoroughly instead of not making any legitimate points and making up lies to cover for your lack of knowledge.

And another pathetic thing is the thread you made about who you fantasize about when you jerk off. Seriously? What the fuck is wrong with you? Holy shit you’re pathetic

 

[nhbbear]

This x 1M if he ever was a cop

You’re still going with that one? You’re getting as bad as that other twat making up my criminal empire because he’s got nothing else

 

[nhbbear]

I'm not am expert but have some training. I'm sure there were other ways to handle this, there always is.

However like I said their first priority was protection of the public and and shooting was justified.

That’s been my whole point this whole time. I would have chosen to at least have my cruiser providing some protection, but how those officers chose to engage is at their discretion and when that goof decided to try and seriously injure or kill one of them, it was a justified shoot. It doesn’t matter that the brick missed or he could o ly throw it once. When he drew back his arm to throw the brick, that officer had to first perceive that he’s about to throw the brick and I have to protect myself and then his brain has to tell his body to act causing a slight delay. Josh is trying to say that this is all on the officers because they put themselves too close and it’s the officers fault that he threw the brick. He even tried to argue that they purposely got close just so they could shoot him. But this is all on the idiot that brought a brick to a gunfight

 

[Joshuaace]

You’re still going with that one?

Yes!

It reconciles far better than a dude who has written billions of words online about police, but when he finally got his first tatoo at 59, it was a fish and not his badge number, dept, weapons he carried, and notch for every search performed, and every public nuisance terminated.

 

[Joshuaace]

I feel like @Via Heeto is only trying to hurt CRUSHING bear man’s feelings in here now.

ftfy

 

[nhbbear]

now you went and did it. He is going to write you a 5000 word response it which he denies his feelings are hurt and then tell you a story about how he rescued a cat from a tree even though it was in a shithole known as Cleveland because he was just that great of a cop

Why would I say something to poon? He is only pointing out that you haven’t made a single post addressing any of the cases in this entire thread. Not one that I recall. Why is that? Because you are incapable of making a legitimate argument backed by….well, anything. I mean, you’re such an expert on police issues that you were able to call me on my reign of terror but can’t make a single argument about any of the police actions in this thread.

And why do you think calling me Lt Pickles is going to bother me? The pickles part was my nickname since 2002. Then I was pfc pickles, corporal pickles, Sgt and then Lt.

 

[nhbbear]

Yes!

It reconciles far better than a dude who has written billions of words online about police, but when he finally got his first tatoo at 59, it was a fish and not his badge number, dept, weapons he carried, and notch for every search performed, and every public nuisance terminated.

First of all, I waited to get tattoos because of where I wanted them located and I would have had to either always wear long sleeves or have a neoprene sleeve covering them. Ironically, they just lifted the ban on tattoos three months ago so long as they are ok’d by a lieutenant.

Second, you’re saying I should have gone with a badge or some police related theme? Nope, not a chance. Do you have tattoos and are they of a crackhead that you once defended for raping a child?

Third, I’m 46, not 59

Fourth, my first tattoo was a kraken and second is a whale, not a fish.

 

[nhbbear]

ftfy

Really? Crushing me by making up the most ridiculous lies? He’s an idiot with one note to play and he’s way off key

 

[Via Heeto]

On side note, you have hit just about every name in the book towards me. twat, bitch, cocksucker....... yet not once have i called you a murderer, which you most likely are

Yep. You’re unhinged. You are so gotten to that you’ve made up some fantasy about all my supposed crimes. After you called me a murderer and accused me of a bunch of other ridiculous shit and when I made fun of how idiotic that is you backpedaled and said you never said that and you claimed you said “probably” but now you’re back to claiming these things are true with absolutely zero legitimacy in your claims. You’re so desperate to try and defame me that you make up lies, which is ridiculously pathetic. It started with your notion that I defend dirty cops and just kept getting stranger and more unhinged. At least ace tries to argue about a case. He’s doing very poorly, but at least he is trying without making shit up.

OK, let me clear up things for you. "Most likely" and "probably" mean the same thing. and again, i didn't read all of the rest. You are falling apart, pickles

 

[Via Heeto]

First of all, I waited to get tattoos because of where I wanted them located and I would have had to either always wear long sleeves or have a neoprene sleeve covering them. Ironically, they just lifted the ban on tattoos three months ago so long as they are ok’d by a lieutenant.

Second, you’re saying I should have gone with a badge or some police related theme? Nope, not a chance. Do you have tattoos and are they of a crackhead that you once defended for raping a child?

Third, I’m 46, not 59

Fourth, my first tattoo was a kraken and second is a whale, not a fish.

$10 says that now that he is retired he got a swastika tattoo

 

[oldshadow]

That’s been my whole point this whole time. I would have chosen to at least have my cruiser providing some protection, but how those officers chose to engage is at their discretion and when that goof decided to try and seriously injure or kill one of them, it was a justified shoot. It doesn’t matter that the brick missed or he could o ly throw it once. When he drew back his arm to throw the brick, that officer had to first perceive that he’s about to throw the brick and I have to protect myself and then his brain has to tell his body to act causing a slight delay. Josh is trying to say that this is all on the officers because they put themselves too close and it’s the officers fault that he threw the brick. He even tried to argue that they purposely got close just so they could shoot him. But this is all on the idiot that brought a brick to a gunfight

All I know for sure the shooting was justified to protect the public and thr officer the brick was being throw at. The officer did his job. I believe it could be done better in the future in the same circumstances maybe.


That's a training issue for the future it doesn't mean this was a bad shoot. You lean and apply.

 

[Joshuaace]

However like I said their first priority was protection of the public and and shooting was justified.

The shooting was justified? Or the shooting was neccasary? In California, the standard is NECCESARY. There is a difference. You can't say, "the tactics were poor", and then also say "the shooting was neccesary". You can only say "The tactics were poor"......and from there you have to explore the potential outcome if proper tactics were employed, because they weren't.





AB392.
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201920200AB392

 

[oldshadow]

The shooting was justified? Or the shooting was neccasary? In California, the standard is NECCESARY. There is a difference. You can't say, "the tactics were poor", and then also say "the shooting was neccesary". You can only say "The tactics were poor"......and from there you have to explore the potential outcome if proper tactics were employed, because they weren't.





AB392.
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201920200AB392

Necessary is the same a justified.

"This bill would redefine the circumstances under which a homicide by a peace officer is deemed justifiable to include when the officer reasonably believes, based on the totality of the circumstances, that deadly force is necessary to defend against an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury to the officer or to another person, or to apprehend a fleeing person for a felony that threatened or resulted in death or serious bodily injury, if the officer reasonably believes that the person will cause death or serious bodily injury to another unless the person is immediately apprehended."

 

[Joshuaace]

Necessary is the same a justified.

The hell it is.

 

[oldshadow]

The hell it is.

Read your own link I quoted.

 

[nhbbear]

I feel like @Via Heeto is only trying to hurt bear man’s feelings in here now

He’s trying, but his attempts are absolutely laughable and pathetic.

 

[nhbbear]

All I know for sure the shooting was justified to protect the public and thr officer the brick was being throw at. The officer did his job. I believe it could be done better in the future in the same circumstances maybe.


That's a training issue for the future it doesn't mean this was a bad shoot. You lean and apply.

Oh yeah, definitely could have been done better and differently, but there’s nothing legally wrong with the way it went down. If you attack a police officer with a deadly weapon, well, you just accepted a Darwin Award. If I were ignorant of the reaction time studies that explain why there was a slight delay from the time the officer perceives the threat and the time it takes the brain to tell the body to shootWhat I find funny as well is how differently this shooting would be treated based upon race. If this guy had been white, we would have never known about it. Because he is Hispanic, there’s a little bit of discussion here, but still not much. If he were black, there would have been protests and lots more discussion and ben crump would be standing with the family doing press conferences, there would hashtags on twitter, etc. but there’s almost nothing