Law THE POLICE SHOOTING/USE OF FORCE MEGATHREAD: discussions to determine if justified or not

[nhbbear]

All I know for sure the shooting was justified to protect the public and thr officer the brick was being throw at. The officer did his job. I believe it could be done better in the future in the same circumstances maybe.


That's a training issue for the future it doesn't mean this was a bad shoot. You lean and apply.

Edit:double post

 

[Joshuaace]

Oh yeah, definitely could have been done better and differently,

By better, do you mean without the Officers putting themselves in jeopardy? They've got a policy about that and it's already been posted.


Employing other tactics that do not unreasonably increase officer jeopardy.

 

[nhbbear]

By better, do you mean without the Officers putting themselves in jeopardy? They've got a policy about that and it's already been posted.


Employing other tactics that do not unreasonably increase officer jeopardy.

Oh no, is this another “gotcha” moment where you think you scored the winning goal? Is that a department policy or something at the state level?
Because it almost reads like officers have a duty to retreat vs the normal stand your ground laws that exist. Imo; that’s overstepping in its own rigidneness because police work is one big fluid or dynamic situation that doesn’t flourish under too rigid


My very first post about this incident I specifically stated that I don’t love their tactics. I then offered up several other and in my opinion, better solutions to this problem. With that said, I and others, have also pointed out is that there isn’t just one correct answer and even if these officers chose one of the lesser tactical choices, that does not make this a criminal matter. Police officers have discretion on how and when to use force and how they approach a situation. Maybe they thought that getting closer to him would make him realize that he was not going to be allowed to simply walk away after threatening people with a brick.

Ultimately, this boils down to the officers using less than the best tactical options, but it was Vargas that chose to escalate this circumstance by attacking the officers with a brick. Oh wait, I forgot, the officers wanted to have a brick thrown at them according to you just so they could use lethal force and get to shoot someone because everyone knows that is the dream of every single cop-to get to kill someone legally without repercussions. Give me a break. That was one of my biggest fears, just immediately below getting killed myself, was that some day I would have to kill someone, and I came close a couple times but I hesitated and luckily, it worked out in my favor. Oh wait, according to heeto, I have killed several people-murdered them, in fact-so gee, which version is more likely?


And as far as the case law, the beauty of graham v Connor is that we are required to look at the totality of the circumstances and without 20/20 hindsight, so we don’t get to watch the video and point out that the brick wasn’t actually going to hit the officer had he just stood there. You have to put yourself(well, not you) but a “reasonable officer” in that exact situation and ask:

“ok, so a suspect that has already threatened one person with this deadly weapon, is now cocking back his arm to throw the brick at you-and you don’t know how accurate he is, whether he had an arm like Nolan Ryan (only pitcher I know besides Cy Young), and you have milliseconds to make this decision-is it reasonable that this officer felt his life was in danger-would a reasonable officer believe that a thrown brick could cause serious injury or death, and if you think the answer to that question is “no, it’s not reasonable” then you are being dishonest or are so in love with criminals and hate cops (except for the one that guided you out of your criminal phase) so much that you can’t be objective in this matter.

and you mentioned that the officer was reckless earlier in the thread when you said he failed to consider that his backstop for his bullets were houses and citizens. That is always a consideration but not one that the officer has total control over because unlike your fantasy where the officers were hoping and praying that they would get to kill this guy, they aren’t puppeteers controlling him and he chose to initiate deadly force against the officers. And you’re playing the “what if game” as in “what if one of those bullets struck a child or pregnant woman?” Well, guess what. They didn’t. They found their mark just fine as evidenced by Vargas sprouting two unnatural orifices in his body.

 

[nhbbear]

$10 says that now that he is retired he got a swastika tattoo

I would send you my Venmo account for that $10, but you’re probably lying and would Welch on that bet. Do you have any original insults, or are you just reading from the acab stereotype insult catalogue? And again, why exactly do you think calling me pickles is some kind of insult?

 

[Via Heeto]

I would send you my Venmo account for that $10, but you’re probably lying and would Welch on that bet. Do you have any original insults, or are you just reading from the acab stereotype insult catalogue? And again, why exactly do you think calling me pickles is some kind of insult?

Where did I say calling you Lt. Pickles was an insult, pickles? You continue to put words in my mouth. I am sure many an innocent person was put behind bas because you made up shit on them too.

Are you like a gherkin? A deli dill? a butter pickle? I bet it's a gherkin

 

[Joshuaace]

And you’re playing the “what if game” as in “what if one of those bullets struck a child or pregnant woman?” Well, guess what. They didn’t. They found their mark just fine as evidenced by Vargas sprouting two unnatural orifices in his body.

Spoken like someone with great no reverance for human life.

 

[nhbbear]

Where did I say calling you Lt. Pickles was an insult, pickles? You continue to put words in my mouth. I am sure many an innocent person was put behind bas because you made up shit on them too.

Are you like a gherkin? A deli dill? a butter pickle? I bet it's a gherkin

I would probably have to say I am a boar’s head horseradish chip or a good, tangy dill.

And I didn’t say you said it was an insult, I asked why you thought it was an insult and I am just trying to figure out why you would think that would bother me at all. It’s pretty odd. And I’m the one making stuff up? Really? You’re a very odd person

 

[nhbbear]

Spoken like someone with great no reverance for human life.

Yes, clearly I am very broken up by the police shooting a man that tried to kill them. My heart breaks for him. Just like I am sure you would be very upset over the death of Vargas if he had tried to hit some random person(not a cop) with the same brick and got shot in the process. It wouldn’t be a blip on your radar and even if it did somehow come to your knowledge, you would probably say it was justified or be like “oh well.” . It’s just like the blm mentality. They, along with politicians, pro sports personalities, celebrities, ben crump, etc somehow manage to ignore over 10k black people (all too often innocent children hit in the crossfire)murdered and over 100k non-fatally shot by other black people every single year, but the second a cop shoots someone, they’re out in the streets, crying over the loss of life, and claim that cops are hunting black people.

And how many bullet holes have you stuck your barehands over to stop the bleeding while his friends spit on the top of your head? How many times have you risked your life to prevent the loss of someone else’s life? Yeah, thought so

 

[Via Heeto]

I would probably have to say I am a boar’s head horseradish chip or a good, tangy dill.

And I didn’t say you said it was an insult, I asked why you thought it was an insult and I am just trying to figure out why you would think that would bother me at all. It’s pretty odd. And I’m the one making stuff up? Really? You’re a very odd person

I see why you never made detective. I don't think it is an insult at all, pickles.

go ahead and get your last word in since you are totally not bothered. Make sure it is at least 5000 words and contains at least 1 story telling us about how you really were a good cop

 

[nhbbear]

I see why you never made detective. I don't think it is an insult at all, pickles.

go ahead and get your last word in since you are totally not bothered. Make sure it is at least 5000 words and contains at least 1 story telling us about how you really were a good cop

Never put in for detective. I made sergeant really early in my career and once you were in the detective division, if you accepted a promotion to sergeant, you would be pulled out of detectives and put on a shift. I probably should have, though, because as a detective, I could have steered the heat off of me for all those murders I committed

 

[Joshuaace]

You have to put yourself(well, not you) but a “reasonable officer” in that exact situation and ask:

“ok, so a suspect that has already threatened one person with this deadly weapon, is now cocking back his arm to throw the brick at you-and you don’t know how accurate he is, whether he had an arm like Nolan Ryan (only pitcher I know besides Cy Young), and you have milliseconds to make this decision-is it reasonable that this officer felt his life was in danger-would a reasonable officer believe that a thrown brick could cause serious injury or death, and if you think the answer to that question is “no, it’s not reasonable” then you are being dishonest or are so in love with criminals and hate cops (except for the one that guided you out of your criminal phase) so much that you can’t be objective in this matter.

ECPD has only released a small fraction of the audio and video they have. But it appears to show us the actions of a reasonable officer in a similar, VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL situation.

You watched the briefing released by ECPD I presume. It's a shit briefing, they only released a small portion of the audio/video recordings they have. They have not identified any of the Officers involved as far as I am aware. Piecing things together as best we can from that shit release:

We know the basic positions of 2 of the ofc on foot at the time Vargas was shot. labeled in the video as #1 and #2. We know the basic position of 3 cruisers at the time of the shoot. We know P157 is probably #1, and P165 is probably #2.

When Police first made contact with Vargas, he was on the north side of Ocotillo walking west, with a beer and a brick, and had threatened the 911 caller already. #1 is in P157 with his lights activated in front of 1728 Ocotillo. #2 presumably has parked P165 behind P157 and begins to approach Vargas from behind. He confirms the presence of the brick, and calls for more units. #1 keeps P157 alongside #2 as #2 closes the distance saying "It's just a beer bro" "don't make this worse that it is." His tone and words are de-escalatory initially. As Vargas continues to walk away we here #2's tone become more firm, completely fine considering the passive resistance.

During several seconds of bodycam video from #2, We know he pursues on foot at least as far West as 1748 Ocotillo. At this point, we are about a dozen houses away from the location of the shooting. It's also a minimum of 3 houses back to where P165 is parked. #2 does not appear to have a weapon here. Since he knows Vargas has the brick and is walking away from him, he maintains a distance where he doesn't perceive the brick as deadly weapon. Presumably, #2 disengages to retrieve Cruiser P165.

#2 at this point, HAS followed their de-escalation policy. As previously noted, I would have preferred at least some attempts to communicate in Spanish, but it's possible neither of those 2 officers even knew Spanish. So when we look at #2's actions compared to the de-escalation policy. (My notes in Blue)

300.3.6 ALTERNATIVE TACTICS - DE-ESCALATION
As time and circumstances reasonably permit, and when community and officer safety would not be compromised, officers should consider actions that may increase officer safety and may decrease the need for using force:
(a) Summoning additional resources that are able to respond in a reasonably timely manner.
#2 did in fact call for additional units, which were dispatched. back-up is just arriving as Vargas is mortally wounded.

(b) Formulating a plan with responding officers before entering an unstable situation that does not reasonably appear to require immediate intervention.
#2 disengaged to retrieve his Cruiser. He is aware of the brick, he is aware of the threat to the 911 caller. He does not enter an unstable situation because he does not approach within the range of the weapon Vargas possesses

(c) Employing other tactics that do not unreasonably increase officer jeopardy.
Since he had other units en route AND didn't see any reason this required immediate intervention, he disengaged, retrieved Cruiser P165, and was PRESUMABLY trying to formulate a plan with the larger group of responding Officers he will have in a couple minutes.



That's what a reasonable Officer DID. He followed his training and policy on use of force and de-escalation.

Presumably while #2 retrieved P165, #1 was keeping a real close eye on Vargas who had continued walking West, but somewhere along the way crossed to the South side of Ocotillo. We have no idea if or what commands #1 was giving from his car at this time.

What we do know, is what we see Ofc #1 doing from #3's dashcam doesn't resemble de-escalation at all. This looks like the Lone Ranger disregarding policy to show this guy you don't walk away from the Police, dammit.


Let me compare his actions to the same de-escalation policy.

300.3.6 ALTERNATIVE TACTICS - DE-ESCALATION

As time and circumstances reasonably permit, and when community and officer safety would not be compromised, officers should consider actions that may increase officer safety and may decrease the need for using force:

(a) Summoning additional resources that are able to respond in a reasonably timely manner.
#2 had already summoned them. #1 forced an unstable situation just moments before they arrived and could be utilized.


(b) Formulating a plan with responding officers before entering an unstable situation that does not reasonably appear to require immediate intervention.
#1 is off the reservation right here. He put himself in an unstable situation by himself, at a time when there was no obvious need for intervention, and with reinforcements moments away.

(c) Employing other tactics that do not unreasonably increase officer jeopardy.
He very clearly employed tactics that left him exposed to the risk for injury. He then used the jeopardy he placed himself in, as reason to take a man's life.

 

[Joshuaace]

Just for laughs. What if?

What if the third Officer is a K9 Handler, and Officer #4 is named Fido?

 

[deadshot138]

What the fuck happened to this thread. @nhbbear have you seen the story of the officers getting fired for shooting a dude during a car repossession?

 

[deadshot138]

ECPD has only released a small fraction of the audio and video they have. But it appears to show us the actions of a reasonable officer in a similar, VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL situation.

You watched the briefing released by ECPD I presume. It's a shit briefing, they only released a small portion of the audio/video recordings they have. They have not identified any of the Officers involved as far as I am aware. Piecing things together as best we can from that shit release:

We know the basic positions of 2 of the ofc on foot at the time Vargas was shot. labeled in the video as #1 and #2. We know the basic position of 3 cruisers at the time of the shoot. We know P157 is probably #1, and P165 is probably #2.

When Police first made contact with Vargas, he was on the north side of Ocotillo walking west, with a beer and a brick, and had threatened the 911 caller already. #1 is in P157 with his lights activated in front of 1728 Ocotillo. #2 presumably has parked P165 behind P157 and begins to approach Vargas from behind. He confirms the presence of the brick, and calls for more units. #1 keeps P157 alongside #2 as #2 closes the distance saying "It's just a beer bro" "don't make this worse that it is." His tone and words are de-escalatory initially. As Vargas continues to walk away we here #2's tone become more firm, completely fine considering the passive resistance.

During several seconds of bodycam video from #2, We know he pursues on foot at least as far West as 1748 Ocotillo. At this point, we are about a dozen houses away from the location of the shooting. It's also a minimum of 3 houses back to where P165 is parked. #2 does not appear to have a weapon here. Since he knows Vargas has the brick and is walking away from him, he maintains a distance where he doesn't perceive the brick as deadly weapon. Presumably, #2 disengages to retrieve Cruiser P165.

#2 at this point, HAS followed their de-escalation policy. As previously noted, I would have preferred at least some attempts to communicate in Spanish, but it's possible neither of those 2 officers even knew Spanish. So when we look at #2's actions compared to the de-escalation policy. (My notes in Blue)

300.3.6 ALTERNATIVE TACTICS - DE-ESCALATION
As time and circumstances reasonably permit, and when community and officer safety would not be compromised, officers should consider actions that may increase officer safety and may decrease the need for using force:
(a) Summoning additional resources that are able to respond in a reasonably timely manner.
#2 did in fact call for additional units, which were dispatched. back-up is just arriving as Vargas is mortally wounded.

(b) Formulating a plan with responding officers before entering an unstable situation that does not reasonably appear to require immediate intervention.
#2 disengaged to retrieve his Cruiser. He is aware of the brick, he is aware of the threat to the 911 caller. He does not enter an unstable situation because he does not approach within the range of the weapon Vargas possesses

(c) Employing other tactics that do not unreasonably increase officer jeopardy.
Since he had other units en route AND didn't see any reason this required immediate intervention, he disengaged, retrieved Cruiser P165, and was PRESUMABLY trying to formulate a plan with the larger group of responding Officers he will have in a couple minutes.



That's what a reasonable Officer DID. He followed his training and policy on use of force and de-escalation.

Presumably while #2 retrieved P165, #1 was keeping a real close eye on Vargas who had continued walking West, but somewhere along the way crossed to the South side of Ocotillo. We have no idea if or what commands #1 was giving from his car at this time.

What we do know, is what we see Ofc #1 doing from #3's dashcam doesn't resemble de-escalation at all. This looks like the Lone Ranger disregarding policy to show this guy you don't walk away from the Police, dammit.


Let me compare his actions to the same de-escalation policy.

300.3.6 ALTERNATIVE TACTICS - DE-ESCALATION

As time and circumstances reasonably permit, and when community and officer safety would not be compromised, officers should consider actions that may increase officer safety and may decrease the need for using force:

(a) Summoning additional resources that are able to respond in a reasonably timely manner.
#2 had already summoned them. #1 forced an unstable situation just moments before they arrived and could be utilized.


(b) Formulating a plan with responding officers before entering an unstable situation that does not reasonably appear to require immediate intervention.
#1 is off the reservation right here. He put himself in an unstable situation by himself, at a time when there was no obvious need for intervention, and with reinforcements moments away.

(c) Employing other tactics that do not unreasonably increase officer jeopardy.
He very clearly employed tactics that left him exposed to the risk for injury. He then used the jeopardy he placed himself in, as reason to take a man's life.

Were you by chance related to brick boy? Never seen someone so fervently obsessed with a particular shoot, dedicating countless posts to it.

 

[Joshuaace]

Were you by chance related to brick boy? Never seen someone so fervently obsessed with a particular shoot, dedicating countless posts to it.

Are you by chance one of TS's alts in here waving the white flag for him? Kind of odd to white knight in the WR.

 

[deadshot138]

Are you by chance one of TS's alts in here waving the white flag for him? Kind of odd to white knight in the WR.

No and I don't particularly care for TS' approach. But this conversation has been going on for days.

 

[Joshuaace]

No and I don't particularly care for TS' approach. But this conversation has been going on for days.

It's a discussion board. The thread has been going on for months, his delusion has been going for decades.

But here you are, not actively engaged in the conversation deeeep in a Megathread, counting(or attempting to) how many times I've posted on the subject. That's a bit odd.

Did you happen to notice how many posts TS has made itt where he tagged me, and invited me down to the WR for a debate? Where he accused a bunch of people of being to lazy too read and research a topic that doesn't appeal to them?

I already filled my freezer and used my bambi tags. Too cold to Fish or Golf.......SO, I took up @nhbbear offer. I read the relevant parts of ECPD policy and Cali Code.....and well, here I am.

Wasn't much of a debate though. Our resident expert on use of force didn't prove to be even a novice on de-escalation tactics. Multiple times said he didn't care about policy.

 

[Via Heeto]

Spoken like someone with great no reverance for human life.

Remember, this is a guy who applauded the police in UVALDE for staying back. As he said, he is not willing to risk his life without having a clear advantage, no matter if children are getting shot or not. After all, it is not his job to protect citizens and that was upheld in court

 

[Poon Goon]

@nhbbear here's one with a completely useless cop that I think should be fired. Not the cop that did the shooting, but the female cop that does absolutely nothing to help the situation which ends with a lady getting shot in the face. Cop 1 tells her to go non lethal and she stands there with her thumb up her ass while the lady with the knife keeps walking toward Cop 1.

Shooting has already been reviewed and deemed justified. Family is suing. What are your thoughts @nhbbear? @Joshuaace would you like to explain how the whole thing is actually wrong? Alivia Schwab is the lady that got killed for your googling purposes.

 

[Joshuaace]

@nhbbear here's one with a completely useless cop that I think should be fired. Not the cop that did the shooting, but the female cop that does absolutely nothing to help the situation which ends with a lady getting shot in the face. Cop 1 tells her to go non lethal and she stands there with her thumb up her ass while the lady with the knife keeps walking toward Cop 1.

Shooting has already been reviewed and deemed justified. Family is suing. What are your thoughts @nhbbear? @Joshuaace would you like to explain how the whole thing is actually wrong? Alivia Schwab is the lady that got killed for your googling purposes.

The whole things not wrong. A competent Officer had to take a life because his partner froze. At 75 miles or so, this is just a lethal brick toss from home. Our Statute (Doxxed myself, Illinois resident here) is not as firm about de-escalation as California. Despite that, this Officer did more in regards to trying to find a less lethal solution than the ECPD Shooter did.

He is not required to retreat, but he does "tactically reposition" as much, and as long as possible. He does so because of his reverance for human life, even the one threatening his. He gives his partner instruction to go non-lethal, and gives ground as long as he can. Heart goes out to the Officer and the family of the woman who clearly had some issues, and was hell bent on suicide by police.