The Official Luta Livre thread

[uchubaco]

Adding two Black Belts from Marco Ruas...it was in Ruas Vale Tudo, but they both trained Luta Livre with Roberto Leitao.

That is Manuel Garcia, he is a Spanish MMA fighter...he is considered to be the one who introduced Vale Tudo and MMA to Spain, fighting and putting together the first event there. He started to train with Royce Gracie in the mid 90s but during the early 2000s he went to train with Marco Ruas, Pedro Rizzo and Roberto Leitao in Brazil. He las fought in Bellator winning against Alex Reid.

He is Davide Ferretti an Italian trainer...he started with Marco Ruas and Luta Livre in the early 90s, spearheading the MMA movement in Italy and becoming the first Ruas Vale Tudo Black Belt in Italy.

 

[Ishaq]

The BJJ without the Gi is Luta Livre is a remnant of the good old days in which the Gi was integral to training BJJ. Due to how much they were worth and such...at the time (mid 50s to early 80s) it was statement that in a way was correct, but nowadays any grappling is grappling, in spite of it being BJJ, LL, Sambo, etc.

There are a TON of Luta Livre teachers who keep on swearing that BJJ without the Gi is Luta Livre, such as Roberto Leitao, Joao Ricardo, Eugenio Tadeu, Niko Welko, etc. but in my opinion is wrong. Luta Livre has been different than Jiu-Jitsu in a lot of ways since the early days, and there are a lot of differences such as the way some submissions are applied, some techniques are intrinsic to Luta Livre, competition rulesets, the philosophy of the art is completely different than BJJ...I have trained in both and I can see the differences, but in a way Luta Livre is not growing up as much as it should grow because of some of the arcaic ways of thinking, such as "BJJ without the Gi is LL"

Please tell us the difference in the philosophy of the Luta Livre vs philosophy of no gi BJJ?

 

[Kforcer]

I was looking at Ivan Gomes' history. Wikipedia says his first coach was "Tatá". Is this a misprint, where they meant "Tatu"? It mentions Agatangelo Braga and Osmar "Builson" Mouzinho de Oliveira and José María Freire as his other coaches. Are these luta livre figures? Does anyone know? It also mentions that Gomes and his brothers don't feel the Gracies taught them anything but merely trained with them for a time.

 

[uchubaco]

I was looking at Ivan Gomes' history. Wikipedia says his first coach was "Tatá". Is this a misprint, where they meant "Tatu"? It mentions Agatangelo Braga and Osmar "Builson" Mouzinho de Oliveira and José María Freire as his other coaches. Are these luta livre figures? Does anyone know? It also mentions that Gomes and his brothers don't feel the Gracies taught them anything but merely trained with them for a time.

Tatá was an Boxing coach, don´t really have a lot of info on him...there are a lot of conflicting histories on Braga, Mouzinho and Ze Maria. Some people say that Zé Maria was his first Grappling Coach, who was a Student of Nino Veloso a former Student of George Gracie and then he went to train with Braga, who was a Student of Builson Mouzinho, whom was a Student of Takeo Yano.

Others say that he started with Braga and then went to Zé Maria...those say that Braga, Mouzinho and Zé Maria were direct Students of Takeo Yano. In reallity it is pretty difficult to say who trained with who, because on those times you could say that you trained with Helio Gracie, when in reality you only had one lesson with him and that was enough.

 

[Mcmoon]

Are there any Luta Livre schools in the U.S.? I was just curious and tried googling and couldn't find any. I found some schools that had teachers that had a background in luta livre but they were still just bjj schools.

 

[xMTDx]

The Luta Livre lineage tree that I talked about

This is far from definitive and in many ways incorrect and only part of the picture. Please follow Elton Silva on Instagram. There you will see the history of Brazilian combat, including Luta Livre

 

[xMTDx]

This is much more accurate

 

[Glaws]

This is far from definitive and in many ways incorrect and only part of the picture. Please follow Elton Silva on Instagram. There you will see the history of Brazilian combat, including Luta Livre

Will do, thank you for this. I've heard of the historian Elton Silva before. Will take a look at his instagram.

 

[xMTDx]

I am loosely a part of the historical collaboration he works with. Lots LL stuff regarding Tatu and lineage from a few years back and helped translate some stuff. I also study history at masters level so am passionate about accurate (as possible) representation, particularly trying to avoid vested interests and bias in who did what.

 

[Glaws]

Ok so came across this


written by the same Elton Silva?

I'd read previously that Tatu had three coaches so the article was really interesting but this bit in particular caught my attention:

"LOANZI - THE THIRD COACH
After Catch Wrestling faced a great demoralization, along with the promotion company, a new enterpreneur shows up promissing to bring morals back to Luta Livre. He was Professor Loanzi.
Aluísio Barbosa de Melo, known as Professor Loanzi, was one of the first students of japanese judo expert Mitsuyo Maeda, from around 1914."

Now I haven't read Choque but if I understand correctly one of the big revelations to come out of this book was that there is no factual evidence that any of the Gracies ever trained with Maeda. Again if I understand correctly it was subsequently revealed that Carlos was predominantly trained and taught by one of Maedas students.

So taking the above into account Luta Livre actually has as genuine lineage to Maeda as GJJ/BJJ? If so this makes Luta Livre and BJJ brothers of sorts and the whole rivalry/history between the two starts to sound like something out of either a Dan Brown novel or a Shakespearean tragedy?

 

[Bluesbreaker]

I was going to ask everyone their thoughts on this ridiculous bravado and toxic masculinity associated with martial arts in Brazil, just because someone has a different logo on their gym...

Having thought about it however, it seems like just a more modern version of all the old kung fu systems hating each other, or perhaps to a lesser extent, Japanese jujitsu systems competing.

I think it's unfortunately just part of being human.

 

[Invisible Jiu Jitsu]

I've trained luta livre under Milton Vieira and equipe JOP since January 2009 and I now teach LL in the UK.

"MILTON VIEIRA: First off, I need to make one thing clear; I don't come from that basic Luta-Livre where the guys just know ankle-locks and guillotine-chokes. I came from the JOP Luta-Livre team and the coach there was Jefferson Oliveira Pereira, a master with an open mind. He told me to train jiu jitsu, judo and wrestling - we don't have this in other Luta-Livre academies. Luta-Livre sweeps? I think it doesn't exist, you know, as it's not explored in the luta-livre academies. The luta-livre masters don't know my luta-livre coach enough. But if you ask Amaury Bitteti, Carlson Gracie, and Mario Sperry, they'll tell you that he's awesome. Man, I didn't introduce luta-livre here, I just supported the development of jiu jitsu without a gi."

He has reiterated this to me many times and I believe it. Also JOP had many friends within BJJ and crosstrained with them. Eventually equipe JOP was banned from luta livre competitions for using BJJ moves such as triangles and armbars to win. I was hoping to be in Brazil right now, but covid fucked those plans. I'm going to interview milton properly next time I can

 

[Salves sod Iqueac]

Tatus coaches were catch wrestlers, one being Rufino who beat Carlos Gracie. He taught the Brunocilla father and son and Carlos was the lineage holder up until his death a few years ago. Leitao jumped on board with Carlos and Joao Ricardo in the 80a but was far from and originator of anything. He has a keen mind and has been around for ages though.

Professor Loanzi, who taught Tatu, was a Judoca, a student of Maeda.

Now I haven't read Choque but if I understand correctly one of the big revelations to come out of this book was that there is no factual evidence that any of the Gracies ever trained with Maeda. Again if I understand correctly it was subsequently revealed that Carlos was predominantly trained and taught by one of Maedas students.

So taking the above into account Luta Livre actually has as genuine lineage to Maeda as GJJ/BJJ? If so this makes Luta Livre and BJJ brothers of sorts and the whole rivalry/history between the two starts to sound like something out of either a Dan Brown novel or a Shakespearean tragedy? Eek2.0

lol Brothers fighting and Shakespearean tragedy? I liked.

But this business of Choque being a reliable source is bullsh1t. What do we know? We know that Maeda worked at the Circus that belonged to the father of the Gracies OG, and we know that the Gracies claim that, at least one of them, learned from Maeda. Just that.

Choque is obviously a book written with an agenda. Absorb what is useful, discard the bullsh1t.

 

[xMTDx]

Professor Loanzi, who taught Tatu, was a Judoca, a student of Maeda.
Yep much later in the piece. Originally it was Rufino and Dudu, then Loanzi who was coach and promoter. A forefather of judo in the south of Brazil


lol Brothers fighting and Shakespearean tragedy? I liked.

But this business of Choque being a reliable source is bullsh1t. What do we know? We know that Maeda worked at the Circus that belonged to the father of the Gracies OG, and we know that the Gracies claim that, at least one of them, learned from Maeda. Just that.

Choque is obviously a book written with an agenda. Absorb what is useful, discard the bullsh1t.

 

[Salves sod Iqueac]

Technique called "Flight of the eagle". Wonderful name (Even his brother laughed.)

 

[spacetime]

I don't know if I am able to make an official related thread, but here it goes.

Similar to what we have with the Catch Wrestling and Sambo threads, I feel that our forum needs a Luta Livre related thread, one in which we can not only talk about what Luta Livre is, but also to share some of its history, Lineages, differences between not only the different styles, but also the different styles inside Luta Livre.

I have been training Luta Livre for nearly ten years and know a lot of its story, roots, beefs between LL camps and outside camps (the LL vs BJJ beef)…I will try to share some of my knowledge with you guys, but if you have some knowledge, experience training LL and more, it would be awesome of you can share your experiences also…you are welcome to be a part of this, cheers!!

How does Luta Livre compare to Sambo?

 

[Salves sod Iqueac]

How does Luta Livre compare to Sambo?

Much more ground fighting, it is a martial art created for Vale Tudo. Soon more like BJJ in that respect.

As far as I know in the SAMBO sport there is a win pin, and I don't know much about the combat SAMBO but I believe that the referees will raise you up after being inactive for a while or something. Luta Livre in grappling and Vale Tudo was not like that, without a pin win and Vale Tudo fights ... well no need to say how it was.

Funny that there is this idea that Sambo is tougher or something, must be the Russian stereotype splashing in the martial art.

 

[Evan_The_Kid_1]

We

How does Luta Livre compare to Sambo?

How does Luta Livre compare to Sambo?

The rule set of Sport and Combat Sambo probably lead to faster grappling and faster submissions, because they have limited time on the ground. And then there's the Kurtka (gi) that makes the takedown game different.

A Combat Sambo guy would probably be decent at headbutts in a street/nhb/vale tudo fight too since they're allowed in Combat Sambo competition

 

[spacetime]

We


The rule set of Sport and Combat Sambo probably lead to faster grappling and faster submissions, because they have limited time on the ground. And then there's the Kurtka (gi) that makes the takedown game different.

A Combat Sambo guy would probably be decent at headbutts in a street/nhb/vale tudo fight too since they're allowed in Combat Sambo competition

What about the ground game in BJJ compared to Luta Livre? Is there a different philosophy there?

 

[Evan_The_Kid_1]

What about the ground game in BJJ compared to Luta Livre? Is there a different philosophy there?

Definitely a bigger emphasis of takedowns and being on top (not that I'm saying BJJ is ALL about being on bottom), more neck cranks, and more knee reaping in general in Luta Livre