The Official Luta Livre thread

[Kforcer]

Johil Oliveira was a standard-bearer for luta livre, and Hilbernon is his father. Not connected to Jefferson Oliveira Pereira, who also trained Eraldo Paes, the man who taught Toquinho leglocks.

 

[Kforcer]

Hilbernon is Johil de Oliveira father, a Luta Livre OG.

The main issue is that a while ago someone made what many considered to be the most comprehensive list of Luta Livre lineages…like a month or two ago, it was brought up again and one of the main contention points of it was who were the ones that were considered to be Black Belts under who…but the main one was that Hilbernon de Oliveira was absent of that list. What was the issue with that??

Well, Hilbnernon de Oliveira was the one who TAUGHT Luta Livre to Joao Ricardo (who is considered one of the top Luta Livre Grao Mestres)…when Joao Ricardo went into Vale Tudo he was a Karate fighter, he lost his first fight and then, he needed to learn ground fighting and since he was friends with Hilbernon, plus the fact that Hilbernon was a Vale Tudo fighter, he trained and learned from him.

Fun fact, Hilbernon de Oliveira and Joao Ricardo had an Academy since the early Vale Tudo days in which they taught Luta Livre and Karate, the name of the Academy was "Academia Jo-Hil"…when Hilbernon had his son, he named him Johil in honour of that Academy.

Hilbernon de Oliveira is not a well known figure because he died during an armed robbery in the early 90s, but he is one of the Grandfathers of Luta Livre and a figure who must not be forgotten.

Does Ricardo give Oliveira credit?

I have to ask, btw, are you familiar with Veira's statements about Jefferson Oliveira Pereira, essentially that he felt other schools of luta livre were "basic" compared to Pereira and that Pereira taught a technical version of luta livre that was essentially jiu jitsu without a gi? His statements are sort of contradictory, because if Pereira's student, Paes, taught Toquinho leglocks and if Veira taught Rodrigo Nogueira the anaconda choke, then clearly luta livre did have techniques and insights to offer beyond simply being BJJ in a gi.

 

[uchubaco]

Does Ricardo give Oliveira credit?

I have to ask, btw, are you familiar with Veira's statements about Jefferson Oliveira Pereira, essentially that he felt other schools of luta livre were "basic" compared to Pereira and that Pereira taught a technical version of luta livre that was essentially jiu jitsu without a gi? His statements are sort of contradictory, because if Pereira's student, Paes, taught Toquinho leglocks and if Veira taught Rodrigo Nogueira the anaconda choke, then clearly luta livre did have techniques and insights to offer beyond simply being BJJ in a gi.

Essentialy Joao Ricardo give Hilbernon credit, but in either a broad way of talking…when he was interviewed by Nicolas Renier a few years ago he said that he "learned Luta Livre because of Vale Tudo" but not who he had learned from. Also, a few weeks ago Academia Budokan released a photo with all their Black Belts and at the top Hilbernon and Joao were at the same level. I am not saying that at some point their knowledge was the same or that one was better than the other, but Johil himself wrote on a Luta Livre group that Joao started to train Luta Livre with his father.

Regarding the statements of Milton Vieira, I see where he is coming from…he is from the Brunocilla Lineage, there you had people such as Hugo Duarte, who was more a fighter who relied on brute force more than technique and like in Jiu Jitsu, you had guys who depended more on strength than technique. Jefferson was a guy who relied more on technique than strength, so probably that is why he said that. If you were a teenager during the mid 90s and saw guys like Hugo Duarte fighting, the first thing you would think is that he has shitty technique (refer to his Niko videos instructional) and then you train with JOP and see such awesome technique that your viewpoint changes. In Luta Livre you have Mestres that rely a lot on force, others on stuff like cranks, others on leg locks and others on technique. It is nornal that someone who is trained by a Mestre with one style, has a different one than what he was taught…example: Hugo Duarte trained Cacareco and they are nothing alike.

 

[Kforcer]

It is nornal that someone who is trained by a Mestre with one style, has a different one than what he was taught…example: Hugo Duarte trained Cacareco and they are nothing alike.

Absolutely. That's undeniable.

 

[Italianissimo]

Which are the most important competitions in LL and if Jiu Jitsu has been innovative, in the last 10 years, with new guards and positions. Can you say the same for LL? What innovations in the last 10 years? No intention to start a controversy.

 

[Glaws]

The main issue is that a while ago someone made what many considered to be the most comprehensive list of Luta Livre lineages…like a month or two ago, it was brought up again and one of the main contention points of it was who were the ones that were considered to be Black Belts under who…but the main one was that Hilbernon de Oliveira was absent of that list. What was the issue with that??

Do you have a link for these lineages? Who taught Hilbnernon de Oliveira?

 

[uchubaco]

Which are the most important competitions in LL and if Jiu Jitsu has been innovative, in the last 10 years, with new guards and positions. Can you say the same for LL? What innovations in the last 10 years? No intention to start a controversy.

If you speak of the biggest and most important competition that exists, you are talking about "Copa Budokan" which is run by Joao Ricardo. It has the richest history, plus it has been arround for more then thirty years. These days you have a lot of competitions in Brazil, which are aiming and striving to either become the top Luta Livre competition or at least be one of the best. Eugenio Tadeu, Johil de Oliveira, Hugo Duarte, Bosco Lima and others are running their own competitions with mixed success, but to this day "Copa Budokan" is still the biggest. From what I read and heard, "Copa Budokan" these days is losing a little but of steam, mostly because of politics and because sometimes people go and play the game instead of striving to win it. The idea of "Copa Budokan" radicates in that Luta Livre Academies select their top two by weight class to compete, and whichever Academy wins the most brackets wins the "Copa Budokan", but for example, the last year or the one before, an Argentinean Academy won the Tournament...because they put participants on the weakest brackets and racked up the points by doing that. It is not the first time that they have done that, and I know that a LOT of Academies were not happy of that.

Over the course of these past ten years probably the main thing that Luta Livre added at a Worldwide level, were MMA fighters who represented the art and the use of the Guillotine as a position and/or Submission by Leozada Nogueira. But in reality if you speak over the course of the last twenty or thirty years, then yes, Luta Livre added a shit-ton of stuff to Grappling or MMA. The proliferation of cross training was one the things that separated Luta Livre with others years ago, they were the first to train Muay Thai and add Olympic Wrestling to their trainings. You have to take into consideration that from the 80s to the mid 90s, you fought representing and using what was a part of your style. What is more, at the beginning Brazilian Muay Thai fighters started to train Luta Livre instead of BJJ to prepare for Vale Tudo competitions. Also, you had the advent and proliferation of the use of Leg Locks in Grappling and MMA, the perfection of the use of the Guillotine by Alexandre "Pequeno" Nogueira.

Another thing that Luta Livre has added, that is not on a Worldwide level, but more on a Country and Continent one, is the growth of it on Europe and countries like Peru. Luta Livre as a style is considered by many (I don´t know the numbers), as the same or bigger than Jiu-Jitsu in countries such as France or Germany. This growth happened because of the work of people such as Daniel D´dane, Alexandre Nogueira, Leozada Nogueira, Nicolas Renier, Flavio Santiago, Nicolas Renier, etc. and in Peru with the Iberico brothers who are the first trainers of mostly all the Peruvian fighters that are/or were in the UFC, with the exception of Tony De Souza.

I would say that in a way Luta Livre is today similar to Gokor Chivichyan and what he put in the table...what do I mean with this?? First of all, I don´t want to disrespect anyone, but Gokor and his guys where the first ones to really show how Judo can be used in Grappling and MMA, plus how they accepted and used Leg Locks as a valid and powerful Submission, but their heyday was in the early to mid 2000s. Nowadays Gokor, doesnt´have too many guys competing at the highter levels, but nonetheless he is considered to be a top guy and one who added and was an integral part to the sport.

Luta Livre in the early 2000s started to lose a lot of talent, such as Babalu, Evangelista Cyborg, Marco Ruas, Cacareco, Alexandre Pequeno, etc. who they either went into a big Jiu-Jitsu camp and started to represent BJJ, such as Brazilian Top Team or Gracie Barra or started their own Team, like Ruas Vale Tudo, this exodus happened mostly because of monetary issues. So yeah, if you take only the past ten years into consideration it isn´t a lot what it has been added, but if you see the bigger picture and take into consideration twenty or thirty years ago, things are much different.

 

[uchubaco]

Do you have a link for these lineages? Who taught Hilbnernon de Oliveira?

The Luta Livre lineage tree that I talked about

 

[Kforcer]

Didn't know Gustavo Machado was a luta livre guy. He is one of the few people to beat Kiyoshi Tamura who didn't have a massive size advantage. Though Tamura did handicap himself by wearing no gloves and thus barring himself from closed fist striking to the face. Saw Gustavo Machado fight live at the Arnold Classic in 2006.

 

[Kforcer]

Luta Livre in the early 2000s started to lose a lot of talent, such as Babalu, Evangelista Cyborg, Marco Ruas, Cacareco, Alexandre Pequeno, etc. who they either went into a big Jiu-Jitsu camp and started to represent BJJ, such as Brazilian Top Team or Gracie Barra or started their own Team, like Ruas Vale Tudo, this exodus happened mostly because of monetary issues. So yeah, if you take only the past ten years into consideration it isn´t a lot what it has been added, but if you see the bigger picture and take into consideration twenty or thirty years ago, things are much different.

I think there is a typo--certainly Alexandre 'Pequeno' Nogueira never left luta livre. Great, informative post as usual, but just wanted to point that out for the record.

As far as innovations--so many BJJ teams hired luta livre guys to help them with their no-gi and so for example, Toquinho's leglock game, that's basically entirely from luta livre. Nicholas Renier passed Baret Yoshida's guard in a way that Baret Yoshida himself said he'd never seen before, so I'd say that is certainly an innovation. If you add Baret Yoshida on Facebook, you can probably track down the precise pass. Renier also took the ADCC trials one year with a standing entry into a log-splitter submission that is pretty much never seen. Kesting did a write up exploring the submission, using Renier's footage as one of his references. The Anaconda choke originated in luta livre or at least gained popular use via Rodrigo Nogueira being taught it by the luta livre guys that joined BTT, specifically Milton Vieira.

One issue is that sometimes innovative techniques from a less exposed style won't necessarily get wide-spread attention until they trickle down into the jiu jitsu world. For instance, Funaki's leg attacks from full guard, essentially what Neil Melanson and Lachlan Giles call K-guard, wasn't commonly done in BJJ and now many see it as a technical innovation, but really it just wasn't publicized. That sort of thing definitely happens with luta livre.

You may not remember, but there was a time when this leglock from a waistlock was all the rage, being hit by Shogun Rua, Toquinho, Jorge Santiago amongst others:


Although Imanari may have developed the technique separately (Hiroyuke Abe and others in Japanese catch have taught the technique), certainly it found its way into BJJ via luta livre. Its a bread and butter luta livre technique. At the time it was popping in magazines and various places as a new thing, because it was new to the mainstream jiu jitsu world.

Guys like Marcelo Brigadeiro, Renier, Pequeno and Leozado are creative, innovative people and I guarantee they are continually honing and perfecting techniques.

 

[uchubaco]

I think there is a typo--certainly Alexandre 'Pequeno' Nogueira never left luta livre. Great, informative post as usual, but just wanted to point that out for the record.

Alexandre Pequeno with Brazilian Top Team…he was there around the time that Anderson Silva was a part of the team. It is worth mentioning that Luis Alvez, the famed Muay Thai coach that BTT had was orginally from Academia Budokan

 

[uchubaco]

Following with what Kforcer was saying…think that the main issue of Luta Livre in regards of what they have added to Grappling in comparision to Jiu Jitsu, is that the talent pool of BJJ is much, MUCH bigger than the one of Luta Livre.

A lot of years ago I talked with a Luta Livre Mestre and he told me that in comparison for every Luta Livre practitioner you have a hundred Jiu Jitsu practitioners and because of that the talent pool is too small…and when you have a guy that is the exception and really good, probably he'll end up on a bigger team because of money. He said that if you take a kid from a Favela and train him in Luta Livre and he is really good at some point he will end up with a few options, keep on going forward with a small team an make little money of move to a bigger team, albeit a Jiu Jitsu one and make much more money and 9 out of 10 times they'll end up changing teams.

 

[Kforcer]

Alexandre Pequeno with Brazilian Top Team…he was there around the time that Anderson Silva was a part of the team. It is worth mentioning that Luis Alvez, the famed Muay Thai coach that BTT had was orginally from Academia Budokan

I know he trained with them, but he never "switched sides" like Paes and Vieira, unless I'm missing something. Johil mentioned in an interview that Pequeno was one of the few to continue to fly the luta livre flag. That's what I'm saying.

 

[Kforcer]

Following with what Kforcer was saying…think that the main issue of Luta Livre in regards of what they have added to Grappling in comparision to Jiu Jitsu, is that the talent pool of BJJ is much, MUCH bigger than the one of Luta Livre.

A lot of years ago I talked with a Luta Livre Mestre and he told me that in comparison for every Luta Livre practitioner you have a hundred Jiu Jitsu practitioners and because of that the talent pool is too small…and when you have a guy that is the exception and really good, probably he'll end up on a bigger team because of money. He said that if you take a kid from a Favela and train him in Luta Livre and he is really good at some point he will end up with a few options, keep on going forward with a small team an make little money of move to a bigger team, albeit a Jiu Jitsu one and make much more money and 9 out of 10 times they'll end up changing teams.

That was the impression I got with all those top luta livre guys that migrated--they wanted to be part of a bigger team and get bigger opportunities. Its funny, in the case of Babalu, in a sense he ended up embracing his roots, since later in his career he ended up at CSW with Erik Paulson, even if he didn't explicitly say so.

 

[Kforcer]

Alexandre Pequeno with Brazilian Top Team…he was there around the time that Anderson Silva was a part of the team. It is worth mentioning that Luis Alvez, the famed Muay Thai coach that BTT had was orginally from Academia Budokan

Did not know that about Alvez. Interesting how many luta livre connections there are, obviously throughout the major teams but especially with BTT.

 

[uchubaco]

That was the impression I got with all those top luta livre guys that migrated--they wanted to be part of a bigger team and get bigger opportunities. Its funny, in the case of Babalu, in a sense he ended up embracing his roots, since later in his career he ended up at CSW with Erik Paulson, even if he didn't explicitly say so.

Yes…money was one of the big motivators, but also having new doors opening for you. You have to look a things in perspective here, let's take for example Brazilian Top Team. You had fighters like Mario Sperry and Murilo Bustamante who fought in Vale Tudo, but left the Brazilian rings as soon as they could for bigger ones like Japan and the United States, they went for bigger and better things, not fighting for peanuts just to represent you style in a war that wasn't yours.

Then you had the second wave of fighters from that era, the Nogueira brothers, Ricardo Arona, Paulo Filho, etc. who either made their debut in the US or Japan, places who were considered the place to go (especially Japan) and never had to fight in Vale Tudo, only on big events and for big money.

Now, lets take a fighter like Babalu who started in Luta Livre and Vale Tudo and tell him that probably he'll need to have at least twenty fights in Vale Tudo for next to nothing before he can go to the US or Japan. He'll do it if that is his goal, but at some point he will see people on bigger camps going places and earning big money, he'll make the switch no matter the style, and that is also one of the reasons too...either make it only on Brazil or make it big elsewher because of where you train.

 

[uchubaco]

Did not know that about Alvez. Interesting how many luta livre connections there are, obviously throughout the major teams but especially with BTT.

Yeah…Luta Livre had a lot of people who left them and became famous or known at other places. Because of this Coronavirus stuff I went into a IVC binger and it is crazy to see how many people started with Luta Livre and left them as soon as they had the chance.

 

[Glaws]

The Luta Livre lineage tree that I talked about

Thanks. Do you know who taught Hilbnernon de Oliveira?

 

[uchubaco]

Thanks. Do you know who taught Hilbnernon de Oliveira?

To be honest with you I really don't know…it could be any combination of Takeo Yano, Euclides Hatem or someone from that era…with this issue about the Coronavirus and the issues that people are having with their personal lifes, the Luta Livre scene has been on hold for me to be able to ask about this

 

[uchubaco]

Luta Livre lineage tree by Academia Budokan…you have here some old school guys like Luis Alves, Johil de Oliveira, Giovanni Bennica, Clayton Mangueira, etc...also this tree has two Argentinean Black Belts in Rolando Carrizo Ortiz and Christian Karlikovski