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The Official Luta Livre thread

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by uchubaco, Feb 3, 2020.

  1. uchubaco Blue Belt

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    [​IMG]

    I don't know if I am able to make an official related thread, but here it goes.

    Similar to what we have with the Catch Wrestling and Sambo threads, I feel that our forum needs a Luta Livre related thread, one in which we can not only talk about what Luta Livre is, but also to share some of its history, Lineages, differences between not only the different styles, but also the different styles inside Luta Livre.

    I have been training Luta Livre for nearly ten years and know a lot of its story, roots, beefs between LL camps and outside camps (the LL vs BJJ beef)…I will try to share some of my knowledge with you guys, but if you have some knowledge, experience training LL and more, it would be awesome of you can share your experiences also…you are welcome to be a part of this, cheers!!
     
  2. uchubaco Blue Belt

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    I will start speaking about the two main Luta Livre lineages. You have the "Tatu" Lineage and the Leitao Lineage. The main issue with both Lineages is that, depending on who you talk to, they will have a different idea on who was either the father or creator of Luta Livre.

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    The "Tatu" Lineage refers to the Lineage of students of the guy who is considered the father of Luta Livre, Euclydes "Tatu" Hatem. Tatu was according to history a former Professional Wrestler and a practitioner of Catch as Catch Can Wrestling. It was during his years on the Pro Wrestling circuit that he went into both worked and real bouts, leading to him developing and creating techniques, positions, takedowns and such to face the new challenges, leading to the creation of what was Luta Livre. Visually the best way to recognize a Luta Livre practitioner of the "Tatu " Lineage is because they tend to train LL wearing the pants of a Gi with the Rank Belt over it.

    Known practitioners of this Lineage: Fausto Brunocilla, Carlos Brunocilla, Eugenio Tadeu, Hugo Duarte, Milton Vieira, Alexandre "Pequeno" Nogueira, Leonardo "Leozada" Nogueira, Nicolas Renier, Alexandre "Cacareco" Ferreira, Marcio "Cromado" Barbosa

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    The Leitao Lineage refers to the Lineage of students who are under Roberto Leitao (he was known as Leyton during the early UFC days). Leitao is a former Amateur Wrestler and Judoka, who according to legend, used his degree in Engineering to improve the techiniques that existed in Luta Livre, changing the idea of using force to apply them, to the use of leverage and technique to apply them. He was a smaller guy in comparisson with Tatu. LL practitioners of the Leitao Lineage usually train with regular clothing that is used in NoGi training, Shorts and/or Rashguards.

    Known practitioners of this Lineage: Joao Ricardo, Marco Ruas, Pedro Rizzo, Ebenezer Fontes Braga, Renato "Babalu" Sobral, Johil de Oliveira, Gesias Cavalcante, Evangelista "Cyborg" Santos, Pedro "The Pedro" Otavio

    Both Lineages are integral to the history and present of that it is LL today...but depending on which branch of LL you train with or have knowledge of, the history of LL may vary. What I mean with this is the following, after the death of Fausto Brunocilla, the last direct student of "Tatu", some branches have taken upon themselves, Leitao himself included, to delete "Tatu" of the history books. Either because they say that what he trained was not LL, but Pro Wrestling, but others because they want to say that Leitao was the "creator" of it. Some branches say that LL is a direct descendant of what Pankration was during the early Olympic Games from Greece, and others that it was created by Leitao after he took of his Gi top during Judo Training.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2020
  3. uchubaco Blue Belt

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    Will keep on adding stuff until this thread manages to get some steam!!

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    Today we will talk abou the "General" of Luta Livre, Hugo Duarte. Everyone knows Hugo Duarte as the guy who fought against Rickson Gracie at Pepé beach. There are a lot of conflicting histories of what happened during that time...Rickson threw sand at Duartes eyes, Duarte was ambushed, Rickson beat him up fair and square (which is my opinion), but not everyone knows that they rematched a few days later outside the Gracie Academy on the streets.

    History says that Duarte after losing to Rickson, decided with a contingent of Luta Livre practitioners to confront Rickson at his Academy, one of those who were on that contingent was Luta Livre OG, Eugenio Tadeu (more on that later). When the LL guys arrived, the one who received them was Helio Gracie, telling them that Rickson was not around and that they should try to squash this beef in the rings, but Duarte was having none of that. According to Rickson, he was with a hungover at his apartment when he was called about what was happening with at the Gracie Academy.

    Rickson after realizing what was happening went to the Gracie Academy and after a few choice words, started to brawl with Duarte in the middle of the street, defeating Duarte in less than three minutes, after the fight ended Duarte apologized and accepted the loss, but Eugenio Tadeu did not, challenging Royler Gracie to a fight right there, details are sketchy but apparently someone from the LL crew shot some bullets into the sky, leading to everyone to scatter around and having the Royler vs Tadeu fight at closed doors.

    It is worth mentioning, that Duarte was Roberto Leitaos and Fausto Brunocillas top student and considered at the time to be the strongest and best Luta Livre practitioner, what is more, Duarte was going to be a part of the BJJ vs Luta Livre event that happened in the early 90s, the one who was headlined by Wallid Ismail vs Eugenio Tadeu. In spite of that Duarte made his Vale Tudo/MMA debut in 1995, winning his first five fights in less than five minutes. Leading to be called by some as the "Mike Tyson of Vale Tudo", his first defeat came at the hands of Tank Abbott at UFC 17 via KO, after attempting a poorly timed Armbar and them further embarrasing himself and Luta Livre when he fought Mart Kerr during his prime.

    According to Duarte (I always tought of him as a sore loser), he broke his foot early in the fight and Kerr was poking him in the eyes and tried to headbutt him a couple of times, weird thing to say because he was a Vale Tudo fighter first, ruleset in which headbutts were allowed. In my opinion Duarte tried to bully Kerr with his size and strength but when he was unable he broke down. Duarte was seen by many as a guy who wasn´t very technical but relied on his strength and size.

    After the Kerr fight he had only two fights, winning one via DQ (eye gouging) and being defeated via TKO by Bob Schrijber...ending up with an unimpressive 6-3 record. Duarte kept on being a part of Luta Livre, opening up his Academy and teaching people Luta Livre but without anything of note during these past 15 years.

    All in all Duarte it is mostly remembered by two things...the fight against Rickson Gracie at Pepé beach and the embarrasement that he had against Mark Kerr.

    Ps. I am seeing that I am writing things like articles more than anything else!!
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2020
  4. Smato_rules Blue Belt

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    Awesome thread! I have nothing to add other than remembering being so frustrated watching the Kerr fight, I had no idea who Hugo was at the time
     
  5. BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

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    That was a disgrace for LL
     
  6. tekkenfan Banned Banned

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    isnt it just bjj without the gi lol


    tbh with the itnernet today everyones doin the same shit it seems even bjj guys are leg lockers now were alldoint eh same shit if the rules are to submit the opponent
     
  7. uchubaco Blue Belt

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    The BJJ without the Gi is Luta Livre is a remnant of the good old days in which the Gi was integral to training BJJ. Due to how much they were worth and such...at the time (mid 50s to early 80s) it was statement that in a way was correct, but nowadays any grappling is grappling, in spite of it being BJJ, LL, Sambo, etc.

    There are a TON of Luta Livre teachers who keep on swearing that BJJ without the Gi is Luta Livre, such as Roberto Leitao, Joao Ricardo, Eugenio Tadeu, Niko Welko, etc. but in my opinion is wrong. Luta Livre has been different than Jiu-Jitsu in a lot of ways since the early days, and there are a lot of differences such as the way some submissions are applied, some techniques are intrinsic to Luta Livre, competition rulesets, the philosophy of the art is completely different than BJJ...I have trained in both and I can see the differences, but in a way Luta Livre is not growing up as much as it should grow because of some of the arcaic ways of thinking, such as "BJJ without the Gi is LL"
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2020
  8. ijustwannasurf Brown Belt

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    What lineage and team is Milton Vieria from?
     
  9. uchubaco Blue Belt

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    Milton Vieira is from the "Tatu" lineage…he was trained by an old school guy, Jefferson "Jop" Oliveira. Jop is known by his chokes and is thought by many and given the recognision by Vieira as the guy who created the Anaconda Choke.
     
  10. Smato_rules Blue Belt

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    Would you say LL is the closest descendant, or maybe best modern representative of early 20th century catch? The catch guys these days are mostly a bunch of weirdos and they have no top guys, where LL has been competing at the highest level since the early days. From your first post you make it sound like it all started from the pro wrestlers who were catch guys
     
  11. uchubaco Blue Belt

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    First of all you have to take into consideration the branch...for example I am a part of the Leitao Lineage, in which is sacrilegious to say that Luta Livre was an ofshoot of Catch Wrestling, mostly because the term Catch Wrestling here in South America is the way that Pro Wrestling is called. Personally I feel that Luta Livre is an ofshoot of Catch Wrestling but not Catch Wrestling, I don´t believe the explanation that Luta Livre is a direct descendant of Greek Pankration like Leitao says.

    Now with that out of the way...in my opinion Luta Livre is it´s own thing. Yes, when it was created it was close to what Catch Wrestling is all about, with pinning and such, but shares a lot of things that are staples of Catch Wrestling, such as the emphasis on Takedowns instead of pulling guard, the crazy leg lock entries and more. What is more, there are a lot of old school Luta Livre teachers, who think of the Guard as a last resort and only to control, stall and sweep/submit.

    Luta Livre is for me, what Shoot Style Wrestling or Shooto are to Catch as Catch Can Wrestling...they are based on Catch Wrestling, their sons to be more exact, but at the same time they are their own thing.
     
  12. Smato_rules Blue Belt

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    Awesome answer, thank you! I wish there was a LL school where I am because I am very interested. It also sounds like modern no gi is turning more into that than bjj without the gi. Ik all grappling has kind of blended together over the years, especially in no gi, but the latest style of leg attacks and almost no closed guard seems to be closest to LL than anything.
     
  13. Kforcer Dragon Slayer

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    Interesting video of Roberto Leitao, where he talks about his connection with Tatu and Yakeo Yano as well, who he describes as being part of the same "catch team" as Tatu.

     
  14. Kforcer Dragon Slayer

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    There is a good chance that Japanese catch-wrestling in some sense received the heel-hook technique from luta livre, given that many Japanese catch practitioners, including Fujiwara, say that Ivan Gomes was the first man they saw use the heel-hook. And although Gomes trained with Carlson Gracie jr., he also trained with Takeo Yano and I'm guessing other luta livre practitioners as well.
     
  15. Kforcer Dragon Slayer

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    Gotta throw this video in here:
     
  16. Kforcer Dragon Slayer

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    It didn't seem fair to me; I saw a video that seemed to be an unedited version of the fight and it looked as if Duarte took Rickson down initially and then was forced by the crowd to essentially restart the fight. This is all just going off of my memory but it seemed to me that there are selectively edited versions of the fight and an unedited version and that the latter makes Duarte look better and seems to reveal a degree of interference in the bout.

    My memory could be wrong and I definitely have full respect for Rickson Gracie. But what I stated seems to be the case to the best of my--possibly flawed--memory.
     
  17. uchubaco Blue Belt

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    As you can see in the video, Leitao speaks of Tatu as an afterthought and speaks only about Takeo Yano, who shared some technical knowledge to Tatu, but one who was soundly defeated by Tatu more than once, what is more, Yano defeated Tatu only once, in a Jacket Match (similar to Judo rules).

    I respect Leitao a lot, for what he has amounted to Luta Livre and the sport, but I don't like this type of revisionist history and this way of always pumping himself up as the top guy, I mean, Pederneiras not knowing how to escape 50/50?? Or when he trained with Josh Barnett and said that he escaped the chest compression that Dean Lister could not, multiple times by the way…he is a Master and a great one, don't get me wrong but sometimes his attitude is not the best
     
  18. Kforcer Dragon Slayer

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    It doesn't really come off so poorly in this video, IMO, except when you have the full context it definitely comes off differently. BTW, I didn't know that about Tatu defeating Yano or if I did know I had forgotten it.
     
  19. xMTDx Our Bleak Refuge

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    Leitao is not the lineage of anything LL. It is Tatu.
     
  20. xMTDx Our Bleak Refuge

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    I know plenty about the history and if you want to know anything ask Elton Silva, he is the definitive historian of LL.
     

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