The Official Luta Livre thread

Tatus coaches were catch wrestlers, one being Rufino who beat Carlos Gracie. He taught the Brunocilla father and son and Carlos was the lineage holder up until his death a few years ago. Leitao jumped on board with Carlos and Joao Ricardo in the 80a but was far from and originator of anything. He has a keen mind and has been around for ages though.
 
Leitao also talks up Yano due to his own judo connection and bias but Tatu was miles ahead of Yano. And I totally agree that LL is it's own game, it is not nogi bjj.
 
Kforcer said:
It didn't seem fair to me; I saw a video that seemed to be an unedited version of the fight and it looked as if Duarte took Rickson down initially and then was forced by the crowd to essentially restart the fight. This is all just going off of my memory but it seemed to me that there are selectively edited versions of the fight and an unedited version and that the latter makes Duarte look better and seems to reveal a degree of interference in the bout.

My memory could be wrong and I definitely have full respect for Rickson Gracie. But what I stated seems to be the case to the best of my--possibly flawed--memory.
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The Gracie clan interfering in a match they're losing and editing footage of it? This would be the least surprising thing ever.
 
You guys have any thoughts on the origins of the heel-hook and the story of Ivan Gomes showing it to NJPW members in the 70's?

I just can't believe that he got it from his BJJ training; if that was the case, what BJJ practitioner was instructing heel-hooks at that time?
 
Kforcer said:
You guys have any thoughts on the origins of the heel-hook and the story of Ivan Gomes showing it to NJPW members in the 70's?

I just can't believe that he got it from his BJJ training; if that was the case, what BJJ practitioner was instructing heel-hooks at that time?
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Idk if it was particularly heel hooks, but weren’t oswaldo fraddas guys all really good leg lockers? I remember reading his guys went up against the Gracie’s and dominated via leg locks
 
Kforcer said:
You guys have any thoughts on the origins of the heel-hook and the story of Ivan Gomes showing it to NJPW members in the 70's?

I just can't believe that he got it from his BJJ training; if that was the case, what BJJ practitioner was instructing heel-hooks at that time?
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Speaking of Fadda, I heard on a podcast with Robert Drysdale that probably he trained with Conde Koma for a while and then ended up crosstraining with Luta Livre guys because he was not fond of the Gracie Family.

A lot of years ago I managed to take a Seminar with Joao Ricardo, don't ask me the specifics because I don't really remember too much, but for what I heard during the 40s to the 50s, the Luta Livre practitioners from the time spent a lot of time training with people who worked at merchant and travel ships and that training led to a lot of exchange in knowledge, for what I remember the training with these people happened because there was an Academy or something near the port. Probably the Heel Hook and other techniques came from that training and exchange in knowledge.

Ivan Gomes being a Vale Tudo fighter and part of the "Herois do Ringue" (a Vale Tudo or Pro Wrestling, depending on who you talk to, weekly TV show) probably got it from either training with a Luta Livre practitioner (the most probable thing) or by a Fadda student.
 
Smato_rules said:
Idk if it was particularly heel hooks, but weren’t oswaldo fraddas guys all really good leg lockers? I remember reading his guys went up against the Gracie’s and dominated via leg locks
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That is correct. And he is certainly a possible candidate for the person who indirectly delivered the heel-hook to NJPW and from there, to the world, basically.
 
uchubaco said:
Speaking of Fadda, I heard on a podcast with Robert Drysdale that probably he trained with Conde Koma for a while and then ended up crosstraining with Luta Livre guys because he was not fond of the Gracie Family.
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You know, I heard the same thing about Fadda and luta livre. In fact, I read somewhere that he had his students master luta livre first before they could get a blackbelt in jiu jitsu. The Fadda/Franca-luta livre connection was always something that interested me. I sort of figured that if there was a connection, it would possibly be suppressed by those who wish to minimize the historical role of luta livre and Brazilian catch.
 
Team Kaobon - home of Darren Till, Terry Etim, Paul Sass, etc. Have their grappling origins from Luta Livre.
Marcelo Brigadeiro was teaching there at some point.
Our BJJ coach has trained with Cobrinha and said Brigadeiro is the best grappler he's ever trained with.
I was learning the leg lock stuff Danaher is teaching to Gordon Ryan, over a decade ago.
He doesn't compete anymore but is regarded as the best Luta Livre grappler by most.
I'd be confident throwing him in against Gordon Ryan.
 
FELLA said:
Team Kaobon - home of Darren Till, Terry Etim, Paul Sass, etc. Have their grappling origins from Luta Livre.
Marcelo Brigadeiro was teaching there at some point.
Our BJJ coach has trained with Cobrinha and said Brigadeiro is the best grappler he's ever trained with.
I was learning the leg lock stuff Danaher is teaching to Gordon Ryan, over a decade ago.
He doesn't compete anymore but is regarded as the best Luta Livre grappler by most.
I'd be confident throwing him in against Gordon Ryan.
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Marcelo Brigadeiro is great. I haven't seen anything from him in a while. I have seen footage of him rolling at BJJ Top Team but I never saw footage of him competing, which I would love to see.
 
Apparently his old manager/agent has the rights to the footage of his grappling matches.
He was never submitted in competition.
He's still involved in MMA, I think he's also involved in politics now.
I was told rolling with him felt like being tickled. No strength was used.
When I finally got to roll with him I understood the meaning. It was a very surreal experience.
 
FELLA said:
Apparently his old manager/agent has the rights to the footage of his grappling matches.
He was never submitted in competition.
He's still involved in MMA, I think he's also involved in politics now.
I was told rolling with him felt like being tickled. No strength was used.
When I finally got to roll with him I understood the meaning. It was a very surreal experience.
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That stinks because I am guessing he was very dynamic and exciting. I know he submitted or beat Eraldo Paes, the luta livre guy who taught Toquinho his leglocks.

Its interesting how a lot of luta livre guys have the same attitude as Japanese catch guys towards trying to be aggressive, dynamic and always looking for the submission even though they developed on different sides of the world from one another. I have seen videos of Brigadeiro espousing a philosophy not so different from the Japanese catch philosophy of "kaitentai" i.e., constant motion, no stalemate, go for the finish.
 
Kforcer said:
That stinks because I am guessing he was very dynamic and exciting. I know he submitted or beat Eraldo Paes, the luta livre guy who taught Toquinho his leglocks.

Its interesting how a lot of luta livre guys have the same attitude as Japanese catch guys towards trying to be aggressive, dynamic and always looking for the submission even though they developed on different sides of the world from one another. I have seen videos of Brigadeiro espousing a philosophy not so different from the Japanese catch philosophy of "kaitentai" i.e., constant motion, no stalemate, go for the finish.
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Yes, we were taught any submission counts.
Like I said we were doing leg locks, heel hooks, etc. Years ago, before the leg lock meta.
Plus spinal submissions, neck cranks. Basically if it works use it.
Catch is obviously similar but is more geared towards wrestling and obviously you can win with pins as opposed to submission.
Shane Rigby used to teach at Kaobon, he came from a wrestling and catch wrestling background.
He would teach us some unorthodox stuff and 'dirty tricks' which I loved.
 
FELLA said:
Yes, we were taught any submission counts.
Like I said we were doing leg locks, heel hooks, etc. Years ago, before the leg lock meta.
Plus spinal submissions, neck cranks. Basically if it works use it.
Catch is obviously similar but is more geared towards wrestling and obviously you can win with pins as opposed to submission.
Shane Rigby used to teach at Kaobon, he came from a wrestling and catch wrestling background.
He would teach us some unorthodox stuff and 'dirty tricks' which I loved.
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I was thinking specifically of Japanese catch which, similar to luta livre, largely abolished the pin to differentiate itself from mainstream professional wrestling. Both the Brazilian and Japanese off-shoots of catch are among the most exciting approaches to grappling, if not the two most exciting approaches. And certainly they were very ahead of the curb on their leglocks as well and in many ways, still ahead, just as luta livre is still ahead in many ways. A lot of their transitional entries, entries off the feet or chains from upper-body to lower-body are still underutilized or little known. Not to mention their Achilles locks are generally far superior.

But visually, those two branches or off-shoots are very similar in a lot of ways, I think. Leonardo Nogueira, for example, is never boring, win or lose. He didn't place at the last ADCC he went to, but he had one of those most memorable matches.

I'd really love to see a luta livre contingent represented on Sakuraba's Quintet grappling series, in fact. I think that'd be guaranteed to be one of their best shows if Saku's Japanese catch contingent was matched up against luta livre representatives.
 
In Italy the best team in the national Grappling championship Is a Lut Livre team.

There are two styles : luta livre submission and Luta Livre vale tudo.
 
Grappler111 said:
In Italy the best team in the national Grappling championship Is a Lut Livre team.

There are two styles : luta livre submission and Luta Livre vale tudo.
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That’s cool, I read somewhere that Luta Livre is big in France too.
 
Smato_rules said:
That’s cool, I read somewhere that Luta Livre is big in France too.
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Luta Livre is big in Europe...appart from the Kaobon guys in England, you have Nicolas Renier and Flavio Santiago in France, Andreas Schmidt, Daniel D´Dane, Niko Welko in Germany and a lot of guys like them. One of the greatest things to happen to Luta Livre is to leave Brasil, there are a ton of politics there and in a way is making Luta Livre not to be as big as it could be
 
Have you guys seen that Nicolas Renier has a Luta Livre concepts DVD out from BJJ Fanatics?
 
Leozada Nogeuira, Leonardo Nascimento, Renier, are all good competitors. RFT LL black belts were invited to a National Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu comp for the nogi portion a couple of years ago and cleaned house. I'll see if I can find the article
 
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