The Official Luta Livre thread

[Salves sod Iqueac]

What about the ground game in BJJ compared to Luta Livre? Is there a different philosophy there?

Definitely a bigger emphasis of takedowns and being on top (not that I'm saying BJJ is ALL about being on bottom), more neck cranks, and more knee reaping in general in Luta Livre

Come on guys, obviously all of BJJ's positional grappling.

Position before submission, position hierarchy, the act of judging the value of positions based on striking, etc.

Totally different.

 

[Evan_The_Kid_1]

What about the ground game in BJJ compared to Luta Livre? Is there a different philosophy there?

I guess it would also depend on if you're just doing Luta Livre Esportiva or if youre also doing Luta Livre Vale Tudo, in which there would (or should, rather) be some focus on ground strikes

 

[Salves sod Iqueac]

I guess it would also depend on if you're just doing Luta Livre Esportiva or if youre also doing Luta Livre Vale Tudo, in which there would (or should, rather) be some focus on ground strikes

Certainly should, considering that it is basically, no different from BJJ, a tailor-made martial art for MMA. (This was basically the initial idea of many people, doing a martial art to cover everything needed for MMA/Vale Tudo/Fighting, instead of cross training with specialists how is done nowadays).

 

[Deleted member 466273]

I guess it would also depend on if you're just doing Luta Livre Esportiva or if youre also doing Luta Livre Vale Tudo, in which there would (or should, rather) be some focus on ground strikes

Let's compare the two sports without ground strikes

 

[Evan_The_Kid_1]

Certainly should, considering that it is basically, no different from BJJ, a tailor-made martial art for MMA. (This was basically the initial idea of many people, doing a martial art to cover everything needed for MMA/Vale Tudo/Fighting, instead of cross training with specialists how is done nowadays).

It's definitely different than BJJ, sure, BJJ "might" do some ground striking focus, at some gyms, every now and then, but it's emphasised in LL Vale Tudo more, that's not talking crap, that's just a fact. Plus, if you're training LL Vale Tudo you're going to pick up on a lot of Muay Thai techniques (and headbutts, and ground striking techniques) that you wouldn't pick up in straight BJJ.

I would also say LL uses wrestling a lot more than BJJ, as there is no gi in LL and you have to be good at wrestling style takedowns to get it to the mat. Sure, there are bjj guys who do train wrestling as well, but the fact is that the bjj guys are gonna butt flop way more in grappling competition, and proper takedowns aren't nearly as important or practiced.

They're similar, but I wouldn't at all say that it's "basically no different than bjj"

 

[Salves sod Iqueac]

It's definitely different than BJJ, sure, BJJ "might" do some ground striking focus, at some gyms, every now and then, but it's emphasised in LL Vale Tudo more, that's not talking crap, that's just a fact. Plus, if you're training LL Vale Tudo you're going to pick up on a lot of Muay Thai techniques (and headbutts, and ground striking techniques) that you wouldn't pick up in straight BJJ.

I would also say LL uses wrestling a lot more than BJJ, as there is no gi in LL and you have to be good at wrestling style takedowns to get it to the mat. Sure, there are bjj guys who do train wrestling as well, but the fact is that the bjj guys are gonna butt flop way more in grappling competition, and proper takedowns aren't nearly as important or practiced.

They're similar, but I wouldn't at all say that it's "basically no different than bjj"

What I said was "no different from BJJ" in being "a tailor-made martial art for MMA."

But since we are talking about the subject, you should watch the fight between Wallid and Eugenio, Wallid took to the ground more often and kept top positions using head butts and crushing Eugenio, who preferred to fight standing in Muay Thai style but could not stop the takedowns of Wallid.

In other words, it doesn't look like what you're saying.

Fighting in "Vale Tudo/MMA BJJ" is different from "sports BJJ", but they are still the same art. Wrestling takedown, judo throwing, striking, BJJ has and has always had it all that. Only nowadays everybody cross trains, so it is more worthwhile to specialize in ground fighting. And even so, people are learning more wrestling takedowns and judo throws, that is a revival, because of the competitions.

 

[Evan_The_Kid_1]

What I said was "no different from BJJ" in being "a tailor-made martial art for MMA."

But since we are talking about the subject, you should watch the fight between Wallid and Eugenio, Wallid took to the ground more often and kept top positions using head butts and crushing Eugenio, who preferred to fight standing in Muay Thai style but could not stop the takedowns of Wallid.

In other words, it doesn't look like what you're saying.

Fighting in "Vale Tudo/MMA BJJ" is different from "sports BJJ", but they are still the same art. Wrestling takedown, judo throwing, striking, BJJ has and has always had it all that. Only nowadays everybody cross trains, so it is more worthwhile to specialize in ground fighting. And even so, people are learning more wrestling takedowns and judo throws, that is a revival, because of the competitions.

There's also vids of Eugenio taking Royler down and holding him down, and vids of Eugenio sprawling and brawling his way to victory against a BJJ guy in 1984.

And yes, BJJ does train takedowns at times, and yes they sometimes train strikes (that is not at all the norm anymore, and I have trained bjj for years so I'm not just some guy talking out of my ass). The point is they don't emphasize that as much.

That's like saying Kempo guys know ground fighting just because they technically do ground moves from time to time, or that Thai fighters know takedowns.

That's not even talking crap, that's just literal differences.

I've trained BJJ under a Jeff Curran Black Belt and a Royler Black Belt, both arts are better at certain things

 

[Salves sod Iqueac]

There's also vids of Eugenio taking Royler down and holding him down, and vids of Eugenio sprawling and brawling his way to victory against a BJJ guy in 1984.

And yes, BJJ does train takedowns at times, and yes they sometimes train strikes (that is not at all the norm anymore, and I have trained bjj for years so I'm not just some guy talking out of my ass). The point is they don't emphasize that as much.

That's like saying Kempo guys know ground fighting just because they technically do ground moves from time to time.

That's not even talking crap, that's just literal differences.

Different fighters fight differently. No surprise there. The Wallid vs. Eugenio fight remains showing which of the two takedown who, who kept top position, and who wanted to fight standing up and avoid the ground.

To say that BJJrs did not use striking, and takedown or throws ... is simply factually wrong. About modern BJJ is simply a matter of specialization. No one wants to learn takedown with a BJJr if they have a Folk wrestler who specializes in it to teach.

 

[Evan_The_Kid_1]

Different fighters fight differently. No surprise there. The Wallid vs. Eugenio fight remains showing which of the two takedown who, who kept top position, and who wanted to fight standing up and avoid the ground.

To say that BJJrs did not use striking, and takedown or throws ... is simply factually wrong. About modern BJJ is simply a matter of specialization. No one wants to learn takedown with a BJJr if they have a Folk wrestler who specializes in it to teach.

Again, I have stated that BJJ guys use strikes and takedowns, I just said it wasn't as emphasized as other arts, which is true.

And I'm pretty sure the Eugenio-Renzo fight was stopped after Renzo refused to stand up (and the chaos that ensued)

 

[Salves sod Iqueac]

Again, I have stated that BJJ guys use strikes and takedowns, I just said it wasn't as emphasized as other arts, which is true.

And I'm pretty sure the Eugenio-Renzo fight was stopped after Renzo refused to stand up (and the chaos that ensued)

I don't know about the Renzo's fight.

 

[Evan_The_Kid_1]

I don't know about the Renzo's fight.

Ended in a no contest because Renzo punched a fan and there was a riot that ensued. Renzo's last Bare Knuckle MMA fight. I think the riot was even on an episode of "World's Dumbest" or some show like that

 

[Salves sod Iqueac]

I think the riot was even on an episode of "World's Dumbest" or some show like that

lol

 

[Evan_The_Kid_1]

lol

I didn't mean to disrespect bjj, and if I did I'm sorry. I think both BJJ and LL have strengths over the other.

And that Eugenio-Renzo fight was the last "legal" Vale Tudo/NHB fight in Brazil I'm pretty sure.

 

[Salves sod Iqueac]

And that Eugenio-Renzo fight was the last "legal" Vale Tudo/NHB fight in Brazil I'm pretty sure.

It was the last one for a while. Considering that MMA is just another name for Vale Tudo, as MMA was coined to describe one of the first UFCs, soon Vale Tudo.

 

[Evan_The_Kid_1]

It was the last one for a while. Considering that MMA is just another name for Vale Tudo, as MMA was coined to describe one of the first UFCs, soon Vale Tudo.

It was the last legal one under Vale Tudo rules is what I meant. I'm pretty sure the sport didn't legally appear in brazil again until the unified rules came out.

 

[Salves sod Iqueac]

It was the last legal one under Vale Tudo rules is what I meant. I'm pretty sure the sport didn't legally appear in brazil again until the unified rules came out.

Yes, yes, true.

 

[Grappler111]

Wrestling takedowns and Wrestling throws. There are a lot of WRESTLING (freestyle and greco roman) throws similar to judo throws but there are based in no-gi grips so there is a big difference.

 

[uchubaco]

Hello guys, I will be doing an Instagram live interview with Luta Livre Legend, Johil de Oliveira this coming tuesday. It will be at 21:00 PM, Brazilian time.

If you have any questions for him post them up here that I will ask him.

It will be mostly done on Portuguese, but if you join in I will gladly translate some parts of it to English, no worries. Thank you!!

 

[Salves sod Iqueac]

Below is a newspaper clipping describing Oswaldo Gracie as a Luta Livre coach of one Social Club (the Minas Tennis Club), as all of you know Luta Livre is based on CACC, Dudu more specifically is who is described in many sources as being the teacher \ coach of George and other Gracies. There is a photo of a newspaper clipping on the fanpage dedicated to George Gracie on facebook where you can find a photo of a Social Club, I believe that from Fluminense, where says that George was teaching Luta Livre at the club. Too lazy to find the thing.



For me it's criminal how Luta Livre\CACC is under credited when talking about the BJJ bases, that is when it is credited at all. Do enough research and you will see that Luta Livre was actually everywhere. Even Dudu taught at George Gracie's academy, for example, which the historian who owns the instagram profile above describes as perhaps the first fighter camp known.

 

[Kforcer]

Hello guys, I will be doing an Instagram live interview with Luta Livre Legend, Johil de Oliveira this coming tuesday. It will be at 21:00 PM, Brazilian time.

If you have any questions for him post them up here that I will ask him.

It will be mostly done on Portuguese, but if you join in I will gladly translate some parts of it to English, no worries. Thank you!!

Would you be able to ask him about what he thinks about Euclydes Hatem and his contemporaries? And also whether or Cromado and Pequeno had lots of experience in grappling and vale tudo prior to their debut fights in Shooto, where they guillotined legends Caol Uno and Noboru Asahi respectively. I'd also be curious as to what he thinks about the similarities between Japanese catch-wrestling and luta livre and if he feels any special relationship with it. They both have an aggressive pace, lots of standing submission entries and of course, they love their leglocks.

And if you can express to him all my appreciation and gratitude for him as a fan and my admiration for his courage in continuing to fight under incredibly difficult circumstances, then I would appreciate it! Thanks!