The Dagestani Difference

[Tweak896]

Yes but the US has complex training facilities and money. They should be able to train winners. Although I agree that other parts of the world are poorer and don’t enjoy the same luxuries Americans do, I think it has more to do with talented athletes choosing to go into A level sports that pay more in the US and the fact that there is genetic/cultural component that lends itself toward Caucasian dominance.

Add to that the possibility that Dagestani wrestling integrates itself better to MMA than freestyle American wrestling does and that might be why they are so good.

I just think that there is some cultural difference than guys who step into the best US training facilities vs the guys in Russia who also have a tight training regimen, but breathe it. Granted the US people are probably very disciplined, but nothing is like having nothing to do besides train. I just remember joining the military myself and it was eye opening how losing your entertainment/social life was and to be surrounded by only people doing the same thing is. It has to be a long term cultural difference that even the highest level of US engineered training facilities can't close the distance on.

 

[GiganticMeat]

Firstly, there's about 25 Russians in the entire UFC and some are women and some aren't even Caucasian. Secondly, the UFC often doesn't want to sign them look at Renat Khavalov (PFL), Eduard Vartanyan (Nasha Delo), Azamat Kerefov (ACA), Mokaev released, Askarov released. All these guys were either cut or the UFC didn't even want to sign them. And they're all way more skilled and accomplished than the majority of US, Latin American, Brazilian, UK and Oceania talent that they do sign and there's way more examples than just these guys. So obviously, a big reason is because they simply don't sign them like they do other countries talent. But beyond that, Caucasians tend to be smaller I think, in my experience for sure and I've been around a fair amount.

But let's see how Shara, Imavov and Khamzat end up at 185 and I think Ankalaev beats Pereira whenever.

Hmm so finally, someone brings that up... The best example? (Correct me if I'm wrong) Is Ankalaev, who got mauled by leg kicks before finally wrestling. Call it a lack of fight IQ, but it's also reasonable to assume 1-2 leg kicks really can change a fight at LHW+

I think the style is more effective at lighter weights. You can hold someone down, but I think the influence of striking, power and strength begins to matter more. Would like to hear your take

Also I do think there's something to the genetics debate. It's important to note that not everybody within a population will display the same phenotypes, which I think accounts for some of your counter-examples. There are indeed MANY people with a stocky build good for grappling in that region. I've got Caucasus blood myself, but long legs due to African influence. That's another thing to consider. Unless you can see their genetic ancestry test...

There's also something theorized called a "warrior gene"

 

[moreorless87]

Reactively poor area were sports are viewed as a decent career choice and where fight sport is the main sport.

 

[HuskySamoan]

Hmm so finally, someone brings that up... The best example? (Correct me if I'm wrong) Is Ankalaev, who got mauled by leg kicks before finally wrestling. Call it a lack of fight IQ, but it's also reasonable to assume 1-2 leg kicks really can change a fight at LHW+

I think the style is more effective at lighter weights. You can hold someone down, but I think the influence of striking, power and strength begins to matter more. Would like to hear your take

Also I do think there's something to the genetics debate. It's important to note that not everybody within a population will display the same phenotypes, which I think accounts for some of your counter-examples. There are indeed MANY people with a stocky build good for grappling in that region. I've got Caucasus blood myself, but long legs due to African influence. That's another thing to consider. Unless you can see their genetic ancestry test...

There's also something theorized called a "warrior gene"

Their style being more effective at lighter weights I'm skeptical on, but I don't have a good rebuttal. Ramazon Kuramagomedov did well with a similar style vs Jason Jackson to win the Bellator WW title and Magomed Umalatov in PFL. Both these guys would be top 10 if not contenders in the UFC if you ask me. I do feel like at 185 and above MMA and Boxing tend to just be absurdly shallow but Murtaza Talha was one of the best Dagestani prospects above 170lbs by far and he got shut the fuck down on the contender series. I just think 185 and up is super varied due to a lack of talent and consistency. Ankalaev struggled with the low kicks but while Nemkov isn't Caucasian he does have a Sambo style and I think he'd beat Jan and Poatan using that style. And Magomedrasul Gasanov is a 185er with the style of Eagles MMA who i feel could be a title contender st 185 in the UFC.

I'm not saying genetics don't play a factor, or even body types, they do. I'm just trying to keep the hyperbole in check, like Tazhudinov being a lankier 97kg wrestler and beating Sadulaev and Snyder. Or Japan, Mexico and the US all doing so well in boxing at a championship level. Or European white athletes commonly besting black athletes in long and high jump events but US White athletes not even winning trials, thats not genetics quite clearly. I think culture is huge as well, in general it has a bigger impact on athletics but also...culture shapes genetics over time, they can never be completely separate. Poverty effecting pursuits and perspective is ginormous on athletics. But the examples of epi genetics and cultural influence over generations is endless.

 

[StonedLemur]

Me too!

Spoiler

Lmfao, yeah I'm fluent in that language too sir.

 

[GiganticMeat]

Their style being more effective at lighter weights I'm skeptical on, but I don't have a good rebuttal. Ramazon Kuramagomedov did well with a similar style vs Jason Jackson to win the Bellator WW title and Magomed Umalatov in PFL. Both these guys would be top 10 if not contenders in the UFC if you ask me. I do feel like at 185 and above MMA and Boxing tend to just be absurdly shallow but Murtaza Talha was one of the best Dagestani prospects above 170lbs by far and he got shut the fuck down on the contender series. I just think 185 and up is super varied due to a lack of talent and consistency. Ankalaev struggled with the low kicks but while Nemkov isn't Caucasian he does have a Sambo style and I think he'd beat Jan and Poatan using that style. And Magomedrasul Gasanov is a 185er with the style of Eagles MMA who i feel could be a title contender st 185 in the UFC.

I'm not saying genetics don't play a factor, or even body types, they do. I'm just trying to keep the hyperbole in check, like Tazhudinov being a lankier 97kg wrestler and beating Sadulaev and Snyder. Or Japan, Mexico and the US all doing so well in boxing at a championship level. Or European white athletes commonly besting black athletes in long and high jump events but US White athletes not even winning trials, thats not genetics quite clearly. I think culture is huge as well, in general it has a bigger impact on athletics but also...culture shapes genetics over time, they can never be completely separate. Poverty effecting pursuits and perspective is ginormous on athletics. But the examples of epi genetics and cultural influence over generations is endless.

Yeah it is fair to say that the number of examples to draw from is still limited. The competition at 185+ could improve in general, no style is close to being "figured out"

Also it's a nice take, the cyclical nature of it all. I don't think the genetic influence is necessarily that huge, either. For instance, though we haven't seen it, I wouldn't be totally surprised if a white athlete won a sprinting event. Because there are explosive "white" people, who may have a mix of genetics or just some expression of a gene that's different. Or the perfect body type for sprinting to go along with it. It's a very malleable subject. I like that in combat sports you see all ethnicities win. You see fast, slow, strong, durable people come from all backgrounds. It also shows it's about adapting and the individual's skills, too.

 

[DomiDomi]

I think it's a combination of factors

1. They start training very young
2. Disciplined lifestyle - no alcohol, drugs, partying. Complete comittment to training.
3. They seem to learn a more complete grappling skillset from a young age that comprises all of wrestling, judo and BJJ. Whereas a lot of other grapplers from other countries are coming from backgrounds in just wrestling, just BJJ or just Judo and are trying to fill in their deficiencies in their 20s once they start training MMA.

 

[moosaev]

No, it's not magical mountain genetics or superior discipline and focus (although those might help) the big reason these guys have been such a step ahead (and many weren't to be fair, many Abdulmanap sambo champs caught plenty of Ls) is because of their pedigree. Cory began kickboxing at 17 at a very casual gym, that was his first martial arts experience...Umar began wrestling around 8, by 11-12 he was competing in Muay Thai and made it to the juniors national tournaments in Russia. By 14-15 he was traveling out to Makhachkala to train under Abdulmanap and eventually lived with him. By 19 he won a Sambo world championship and an amateur MMA Russian championship. Umar was being trained to be a world champion before Cory even laced up gloves.

And let's be frank, the team Umar surrounded himself with since day 1 was insane...while maybe a few US gyms can compare like ATT, they are fragmented teams where everyone isn't in support of one another or even trains with each other. The talent Umar has come up with...Movlid Khaybulaev, Renat Khavalov, Amru Magomedov, his brother Usman Nurmagomedov, Khabib, Islam and so many more is just wild. Beyond that, Abdulmanap had the foresight to make connections with AKA because he knew Dagestan was more limited in offering striking training and he also saw the importance of his guys training at a Western gym with Western coaches and teammates etc. Because after a certain point in their careers they would mostly be fighting western fighters.

There's a thoroughness that goes into these guys development and at such young ages, from world class coaches and environments you can't really find in MMA yet. It's why the UFC is afraid to sign more Russians, they'd be overtaken at the top largely.

Abdulmanap didn’t make connections at AKA, Khabib initially trained at Frankie Edgar’s gym in Jersey, Mo Lawal (who had mutual friends with Khabib) was the one who connected Khabib to AKA because he thought he’d be a better fit there. The rest of the guys followed Khabib to AKA. Had nothing to do with Abdulmanap, Mo Lawal should get the credit for that hookup.

 

[The Siege]

Abdulmanap didn’t make connections at AKA, Khabib initially trained at Frankie Edgar’s gym in Jersey, Mo Lawal (who had mutual friends with Khabib) was the one who connected Khabib to AKA because he thought he’d be a better fit there. The rest of the guys followed Khabib to AKA. Had nothing to do with Abdulmanap, Mo Lawal should get the credit for that hookup.

I thought Khabib started off at K-Dojo in New Jersey? Frankie trained with Mark Henry and Ricardo Almeida, still in NJ but a different gym.

 

[moosaev]

I thought Khabib started off at K-Dojo in New Jersey? Frankie trained with Mark Henry and Ricardo Almeida, still in NJ but a different gym.

Maybe you’re right

 

[duke_droese]

The difference is, they started very young, rarely had any childhood, only training and a little school, and never worked a day in their lives and have no real education.They were grown into athletes, like many other Russian, DDR or Chinese kids in different sports.

Khabib's generation all went to school from what I recall. He studied hard and his dad was strict with that. They also go to Quran school for 1 hour minimum every day.

Islam was travelling long distances between school and training, and he had to work for a while.

It's not a smart idea to give your youth entirely to martial arts no matter what region you're from.

 

[Conan the K-9]

Khabib's generation all went to school from what I recall. He studied hard and his dad was strict with that. They also go to Quran school for 1 hour minimum every day.

Islam was travelling long distances between school and training, and he had to work for a while.

It's not a smart idea to give your youth entirely to martial arts no matter what region you're from.

By going to school and working I mean, having a general education and not just learning how to read and write, studying for a profession and supporting at least for your self, not just selling tomatoes on the market once a week for fun.

 

[AmonTobin]

Training with the best is probably more important than training early. If I started training for the first time only 5 years ago but with the guys that are in Umar’s camp vs my twin who’s trained for the past 16 years but with only his high school gym coach, I’d probably whoop his ass even though he’d been training much longer. This isn’t even accounting for a person’s god-given aptitude. Look what GSP managed to learn at such a late stage.

 

[Killer Kadoogan]

they have just been given a platform to show their skills. they have better wrestling, but it's not like that it can't be learned, eventually picked apart, and gameplanned against. we just haven't seen Khabib or Islam go up against an actual bonafide wrestler with serious credentials. we saw the same thing with bjj in MMA in the early stages, to the brazilian dominance wave, these skills are learned, assimilated, and produced in a short amount of time. the dagestanis will be no different. eventually you'll have serious wrestlers with wrestling know how, pick it apart, and implement into fighters. i think Bo Nickal is that dude. He's the type of fighter with serious wrestling credentials to where if they ever have an opponent at his weight, doing similar things like islam/khabib, that bo nickal will be able to hang 100%. we saw what happened to Kamzhat, full camp, when no camp Usman, had the slightest inkling of what to do wrestling wise. Sure, he got taken down and controlled for one round, but that was it. His defense nullified any sort of serious offense Kamzhat could do and it quickly turned into a striking match. We will see the same, eventually, 100%. Like jiu jitsu was in the 90s, dagestani wrestling is now. It will be learned.

 

[Blanqa Blanqua]

No, it's not magical mountain genetics or superior discipline and focus (although those might help) the big reason these guys have been such a step ahead (and many weren't to be fair, many Abdulmanap sambo champs caught plenty of Ls) is because of their pedigree. Cory began kickboxing at 17 at a very casual gym, that was his first martial arts experience...Umar began wrestling around 8, by 11-12 he was competing in Muay Thai and made it to the juniors national tournaments in Russia. By 14-15 he was traveling out to Makhachkala to train under Abdulmanap and eventually lived with him. By 19 he won a Sambo world championship and an amateur MMA Russian championship. Umar was being trained to be a world champion before Cory even laced up gloves.

And let's be frank, the team Umar surrounded himself with since day 1 was insane...while maybe a few US gyms can compare like ATT, they are fragmented teams where everyone isn't in support of one another or even trains with each other. The talent Umar has come up with...Movlid Khaybulaev, Renat Khavalov, Amru Magomedov, his brother Usman Nurmagomedov, Khabib, Islam and so many more is just wild. Beyond that, Abdulmanap had the foresight to make connections with AKA because he knew Dagestan was more limited in offering striking training and he also saw the importance of his guys training at a Western gym with Western coaches and teammates etc. Because after a certain point in their careers they would mostly be fighting western fighters.

There's a thoroughness that goes into these guys development and at such young ages, from world class coaches and environments you can't really find in MMA yet. It's why the UFC is afraid to sign more Russians, they'd be overtaken at the top largely.

Great post man, I was thinking similar things to this during the fight.

 

[Alpha_T83]

Dagestanis succeed because of a few factors:

1) Diet/exercise/fitness discipline combined with maximum (extreme) weight cutting. As a result, we see a lot of Dagestanis struggle with the weight cut.

2) Wrestling, obviously. But specifically I would argue Combat Sambo combined with pure Greco Roman wrestling is the best background for modern MMA fighters. Sambo mixes striking and takedowns in a way that pure Greco Roman wrestling doesn't prepare people for.

3) Training with purpose from a young age. You need to get into wrestling & Sambo from the start of high school, at least. Most MMA fighters start with some Karate, Judo, boxing, etc. and get into MMA at a later age. If you start training MMA at 23, you've missed out on a decade of development of your wrestling. Look at hockey players as an analogy -- here in Canada, kids start training to play hockey from the ages of like 4-5 years old. No joke. You can't just start playing hockey at 17 years old and become an elite NHL player like McDavid, Crosby, and Gretzky.

But make no mistake, MMA will evolve and adapt and the Dagestanis will lose their edge.

 

[cws80us]

These guys also seem to have some type of leather/Teflon skin that never shows any signs of damage when they get hit. You never hardly see so much as a scratch on them after a fight.

 

[KavkazDominance]

Firstly, there's about 25 Russians in the entire UFC and some are women and some aren't even Caucasian. Secondly, the UFC often doesn't want to sign them look at Renat Khavalov (PFL), Eduard Vartanyan (Nasha Delo), Azamat Kerefov (ACA), Mokaev released, Askarov released. All these guys were either cut or the UFC didn't even want to sign them. And they're all way more skilled and accomplished than the majority of US, Latin American, Brazilian, UK and Oceania talent that they do sign and there's way more examples than just these guys. So obviously, a big reason is because they simply don't sign them like they do other countries talent. But beyond that, Caucasians tend to be smaller I think, in my experience for sure and I've been around a fair amount.

But let's see how Shara, Imavov and Khamzat end up at 185 and I think Ankalaev beats Pereira whenever.

"Caucasians tend to be smaller" it's the case for dagestanis but not chechens. But we are busy with war since always.

 

[don't ask]

According to the list of names people came up with in this thread, there are more Dagestanis at higher weights than lower weights:

HW - Shamil Gaziev
LHW - Magomed Ankalaev, Magomed Gadzhiyasulov,
MW - Ikram Aliskerov, Sharabutdin Magomedov, Nassourdine Imavov, Aliaskhab Khizriev, Abusupiyan Magomedov.
WW - Muslim Salikhov
LW - Islam Mackhachev
BW - Umar Nurmagomedov, Said Nurmagomedov
FLW - Tagir Ulanbekov

If this is a comprehensive list, then a lot of assumptions in this thread are wrong about their size.

 

[ReasonableMan]

It's why the UFC is afraid to sign more Russians, they'd be overtaken at the top largely.

But many Sherbro fighting experts like @markg171 @xhaydenx @Hdfi @sonhow assure me this is not true 'cause UFC is "the big leagues" and vibes and shit.