The Dagestani Difference

[oski]

The man didn't just develop an incredible fighting system, but a life system as well.


RIP Legend!

 

[AmonTobin]

It's no different than seeing Canada dominating hockey because if you go to rural Manitoba those kids probably grow up with fuck all to do and hockey is all there is.

Lol I don't think you're wrong.

 

[Luckyme]

Considering how late Sandhagen started training, I’d call his grappling tonight a bit of a flex. He obviously worked hard on an answer to the wrestling, and he was effective in getting back to his feet each time. He identified a loophole and was able to exploit it repeatedly. O’Malley and anyone else in the division was taking some notes tonight, I’m sure.

Yeah, the silver lining in Cory's performance was that he gave the rest of the division a blueprint to stopping Umar's wrestling.

I think it's also important to highlight the fact that Umar was never a strong wrestler like Khabib or Islam. On Josh Thompson's podcast, he mentioned that when he first came to AKA, Umar's wrestling wasn't that great and it took a while to develop. Obviously his grappling has come a long way but the fact that he is primarily a striker showed. He doesn't have the relentless takedowns of Khabib or the slick trips and throws like Islam. He wasn't able to establish control on Cory until the 5th round who was able to scramble back to his feet most of the time.

That said, Umar's wrestling is still good enough to beat 90% of BWs but he may run into a brick wall against someone like Merab.

 

[AmonTobin]

Yeah, the silver lining in Cory's performance was that he gave the rest of the division a blueprint to stopping Umar's wrestling.

I think it's also important to highlight the fact that Umar was never a strong wrestler like Khabib or Islam. On Josh Thompson's podcast, he mentioned that when he first came to AKA, Umar's wrestling wasn't that great and it took a while to develop. Obviously his grappling has come a long way but the fact that he is primarily a striker showed. He doesn't have the relentless takedowns of Khabib or the slick trips and throws like Islam. He wasn't able to establish control on Cory until the 5th round who was able to scramble back to his feet most of the time.

That said, Umar's wrestling is still good enough to beat 90% of BWs but he may run into a brick wall against someone like Merab.

Didn't know that. Makes sense.


After tonight, I'm appreciating Bekzat Almakhan's performance even more. Yes it was short notice, but he came very close to putting Umar's lights out.

 

[HuskySamoan]

I'm caucasian and I have a similar build. I think if I started wrestling I'd have certain advantages but of course nothing escapes work put in. You have to do the work to become great at something.

What about guys like Zabit, Usman N. And Amru? They don't have bodies for wrestling and were/are all dynamic lengthy strikers. Beyond that, I've seen a fair amount of wrestlers who break the mold of the archetypal build, Tazhudinov is a good example and even Bo Nickal. Buvasair Saitiev never struck me as a typical wrestler build either but maybe I'm tripping. It's largely s cultural thing, if China put the effort into Freestyle that they do into Olympic lifting, they'd probably be fucking up Dagestan half the time within a decade or two.

 

[AldoStillGoat]

What about guys like Zabit, Usman N. And Amru? They don't have bodies for wrestling and were/are all dynamic lengthy strikers. Beyond that, I've seen a fair amount of wrestlers who break the mold of the archetypal build, Tazhudinov is a good example and even Bo Nickal. Buvasair Saitiev never struck me as a typical wrestler build either but maybe I'm tripping. It's largely s cultural thing, if China put the effort into Freestyle that they do into Olympic lifting, they'd probably be fucking up Dagestan half the time within a decade or two.

Those are all longer limbed fighters... on the whole the Dagestani's haven't been elite in the stand up although some have developed the skill.

also the fact that they can wrestle keeps opponents on their toes which allows them to be more efficient with their stand up. The threat of the takedown for example was the reason why Khabib was able to drop Conor.

there will always be outliers however i think most wrestlers with a body that looks like it can bulldoze you over without stopping is going to be advantageous

I dunno about the China thing but I'm certain that people take up activities in which they have a natural propensity to excel in. Yes Dagestani's culturally place importance on wrestling but their genetics also have something to do with the equation.

 

[AstralPanda]

Anyone fighting a Dagestani would be wise to not fight them in Abu Dhabi

 

[Big Tuppy Hole]

Those are all longer limbed fighters... on the whole the Dagestani's haven't been elite in the stand up although some have developed the skill.

also the fact that they can wrestle keeps opponents on their toes which allows them to be more efficient with their stand up. The threat of the takedown for example was the reason why Khabib was able to drop Conor.

there will always be outliers however i think most wrestlers with a body that looks like it can bulldoze you over without stopping is going to be advantageous

I dunno about the China thing but I'm certain that people take up activities in which they have a natural propensity to excel in. Yes Dagestani's culturally place importance on wrestling but their genetics also have something to do with the equation.

Genetics has nothing to do with it, it's cultural

 

[Kratos94]

I don't know about MMA as much, but in wrestling the wrestlers who get to represent Russia (or Azerbaijan/Central Asian countries, etc) are all at the (or near) the highest level as they wrestle and beat guys from the other republics with strong histories of wrestling (Chechnya, Kabardino-Balkaria, Ingushetia, Ossetia (especially)). Winning big in the Caucasus essentially guarantees that you'll no longer live a life of poverty, or below average (like in the rest of Russia).

 

[StonedLemur]

Good writeup, however starting early can also be very detrimental depending on how it is handled. From what I know from interviews with the Dagestani fighters, training is essentially a cultural value in Dagestan (and probably other countries in the region) where it is sort of expected and encouraged, while in the States wrestling at a young age is sort of a thing you do if you are lucky to have a good program at a school or have the money. We haven't gotten to the point where that kind of training is ingrained in the culture and probably wont due to the size and diversity of the US.

I remember an interview with Khabib and he was saying they move the furniture out of the way so their kids could wrestle even when they were just visiting each other.
He said it had always been like that, even when he was a kid.

That shit is part of them, like pasta is part of an Italian...am I wrong @Bacco lol

 

[don't ask]

I remember an interview with Khabib and he was saying they move the furniture out of the way so their kids could wrestle even when they were just visiting each other.
He said it had always been like that, even when he was a kid.

That shit is part of them, like pasta is part of an Italian...am I wrong @Bacco lol

The same reason nobody else is as good at sign language as Italians -- they've been waving their hands expressively since they were kids.

 

[StonedLemur]

The same reason nobody else is as good at sign language as Italians -- they've been waving their hands expressively since they were kids.

Hey, I talk with my hands ya bastad lol

 

[Pancake Sprawl]

comparing a one in a lifetime athlete to dagestani wrestlers is stupid. He also had a decided reach and height advantage over most of the division... when he fought similar stature fighters he struggled (gustaffson and reyes)

you'd have a point if the "once in a lifetime athlete" didn't have the antithesis to this so called "meta build" that the Dagestanis have. what is even dumber is that not even all the Dagestanis have the same build lol...

 

[Conan the K-9]

The difference is, they started very young, rarely had any childhood, only training and a little school, and never worked a day in their lives and have no real education.They were grown into athletes, like many other Russian, DDR or Chinese kids in different sports.

 

[kkthx]

Great post TS, but you can't help but be impressed by their work ethic. They are extremely hard workers (and hard work pulls off)

 

[Iroh]

Hey, I talk with my hands ya bastad lol

Me too!

Spoiler

 

[Nizam al-Mulk]

How does Mongolian wrestling culture compare to the Dagestani one?

 

[TheBulge]

Genetics has nothing to do with it, it's cultural

That poster usually has bad takes but he's right on this one.

Sports fans are so terrified of the genetics discussion. Terrified of sounding racist or acknowledging the differences and being forced to admit that not everything is hard work and some are just gifted which forces them to deal with the reality that success is often out of their control.

The only thing they might acknowledge is the natural abilities of black athletes because that one is so obviously it can't be denied, but they're still very careful and apprehensive.

Admitting that these high T skulled mountain men with short stocky legs and extremely wide backs might just be genetically built for their fighting style is a step too far. It's too much.

 

[AldoStillGoat]

That poster usually has bad takes but he's right on this one.

Sports fans are so terrified of the genetics discussion. Terrified of sounding racist or acknowledging the differences and being forced to admit that not everything is hard work and some are just gifted which forces them to deal with the reality that success is often out of their control.

The only thing they might acknowledge is the natural abilities of black athletes because that one is so obviously it can't be denied, but they're still very careful and apprehensive.

Admitting that these high T skulled mountain men with short stocky legs and extremely wide backs might just be genetically built for their fighting style is a step too far. It's too much.

I don’t have bad takes sir. Just different ones that go against the grain.

The OP’s post had some truth in it but it completely neglected the genetic component hence why I made it a point to make a blunt comment.

I noticed those features in my own body. When I was under 20 my upper body / torso was rail thin. All of a sudden after 20, my entire torso and upper back got a huge boost. Completely surprised me. Even now when I look in the mirror my torso area is thick. The few times I wrestled people, I found it natural to control people around and stay on top of them and I’m not physically as genetically gifted as others I’ve seen but I can see some of those elements in myself. If I get close to people my size, I think I’d have an advantage structurally.

I agree with you, caucasians are stocky in nature, with shorter limbs but big torsos and upper backs. Also, they tend to have high T and have big ass heads. The caucuses have been a contested region for many years which further amplifies the need to acquire resources, be as strong as you can be and fight.

It’s a small strip of land when you consider the scale of the globe but look how many champions have arisen from that area. The Dagestani’s headed by Nurmagomedov and Makachev, Topuria and Dvalishvili, Tsarukyan and Parisyan. They all have those features we alluded to.

To neglect the genetic component for the success of certain fighters only tells half the story. People flock to what they are good at and there is a genetic component to what people are good at.

 

[AldoStillGoat]

you'd have a point if the "once in a lifetime athlete" didn't have the antithesis to this so called "meta build" that the Dagestanis have. what is even dumber is that not even all the Dagestanis have the same build lol...

Jon Jones got taken down by Gustafson and got no take downs against Reyes so he’s not an invincible wrestler.

Jon Jones is a hyper athlete that could probably excel in any sport he wanted to. He’s a freak of nature with high bone density, low fat and high muscle. It’s not so much that one type of body is the best body for wrestling but instead if you have various attributes it can give you an advantage in a certain type of fighting style. Being able to make weight while being Jones’ height probably gave him certain advantages right?

Jon jones and certain people from the caucuses have those attributes that help them excel in this sport.