Takedown in SD situation

[Dirty Holt]

Have you ever seen a street fight? Double leg takedowns happen all the time.

 

[madgrappler]

Then your basic point does not apply as your 'evidence' was that tani-otoshi scored more than all other throws combined in judo competition, which just isn't even remotely true.

my point was that tani otoshi is easier and higher percentage. That is universally agreed upon by judo practitioners, which is why many more experienced players hate them. It lets lesser skilled compete with higher skilled. if the penalty for missing can be serious danger or death, this is exactly the kind of throw you need.

 

[Difeco]

Royce Gracie 101

 

[aries]

I thought about O soto gari, it used to be my fav throw when I was doing a little bit of judo. But you have to get pretty close in a very "open" manner. Personally, I always try something like a mixture of Harai goshi and Tai otoshi. Instinctively (when I "fight" with friends) I grap around the head and turn my upper body (to avoid hits to the face) and lean forward in a twisting motion trying to drag my opponentover my outer leg. Also I can generate mor power by turning and twisting my upper body and dragging him with me, rather than forcing him to one side and then reaping the leg.

One good way to set up O soto Gari in a 'SD' situation if you are face to face is head butt them then reap. Works great if you are shorter than them but aim for the nose and not their mouth unless you want a tetanus shot. Doesn't even have to be a hard butt if you don't want to hurt them, just enough to get a reaction. Everyone instinctively pulls their head back from even a light touch, weight on heels, perfect for O soto gari.

The bare knuckle boxers cross buttock throw is pretty similar to Harai Goshi but more a throw off your hip.


My favourite throw if you duck under an arm is to secure a body lock clinch and step around and then pull them over your thigh backwards. You have the option of dragging them down or popping your hips for height.

Wasn't going for that at all. I just saw mad make a really ignorant comment and nobody called him on it. Going to the ground in a self-defense situation is a risky proposition, and that needs to be said. Not because the ground is lava, but because in most self-defense situations you can't afford to assume you are safe there.

If I had to take someone down, my personal preference would be a GSP-style double. Put him down, take a dominant position like KOB where you can still extract yourself easily, and take it from there.

I agree but why go to the ground at all? I'd just make sure not to go down with them. In a self-defence situation I'd use a throw to put them down and then I can follow up from standing if necessary or deal with other threats or use it to escape.

Have you ever seen a street fight? Double leg takedowns happen all the time.

Shitty doubles all the time, rugby tackles to be exact. Especially guys with a size advantage.

 

[Nomad Nemesis**]

I will hereafter ignore you. My arguments stand on their own and I don't feel the need to give any personal information to potential stalkers whose low self esteem makes them take anonymous internet conversations too seriously and have already admitted a violent streak like kicking someone on the ground in the face.

Do whatever you like, think whatever you like, say whatever you like. Perhaps one day you'll do or say something to earn my respect enough to respond to you, but so far that certainly hasn't occured. To sum up: you've said nothing of value or worthy of respect, and I don't care what you think. Have fun with your life, and I will too.

lol, ok grapedrank101, silverd, macm, gsparky

 

[QingTian]

my point was that tani otoshi is easier and higher percentage. That is universally agreed upon by judo practitioners, which is why many more experienced players hate them. It lets lesser skilled compete with higher skilled. if the penalty for missing can be serious danger or death, this is exactly the kind of throw you need.

The main reason I hate it when tani otoshi is abused is because it ruins my practice - a partner who just flops to the ground. It's almost like having someone pull guard during stand up time. This goes for other sacrifice throws too. Rule of thumb - unless you have mastered a standing technique, you don't know enough of the basics to make sacrifice techniques worthwhile, in terms of learning. You don't get the same level of feedback from failure.

The second part is that tani otoshi in particular does have a chance of twisting an ankle or knee for the other person, so it's never welcomed from a beginner.

FWIW the last time I can recall getting hit by tani otoshi was twice during a tournament when I was still a brown belt. Both were counters because I failed to have pulled properly when I entered. I remembered those losses bitterly and made sure to correct my mistake, which took a lot of work.

Now I don't know if I will be countered so easily. So IMO it isn't that important to invest in tani otoshi. It will come if it's there, but there is no need to deliberately use it in practice.

 

[GroundGameFan]

I've used the standard hip toss in the few street fights I've been in. Works like a charm on the average guy. I come in with a jab or cross then immediately grab a headlock and toss. A standard clinch (body lock) and trip works very well too and keeps you in control of the guy once you hit the floor. Pretty much any TD you know well enough to not hurt yourself while doing it, works in the street on an untrained guy. Don't overthink it, clinch, tuck your head and drag him down.

 

[Nozza]

I've been in a number of real fights when I was younger. I knew a bit of judo but no BJJ then. From that experience I found it was very easy to ground people using either osoto or kouchi gari.

As for being hit on the way in - it's actually pretty easy to avoid connecting with solid punches if you keep your distance and keep your hands up and away from you to both block and measure distance. You just keep backing away as they come in. What I found was that they get very quickly annoyed with not being able to land a hay-maker and try to grab your forearms, presumably to clear the space to hit you in the face (they always want to hit your face for some reason) or to pull you closer to stop you backing away all the time. It's then a simple matter to grab their arms or wrists and move in too close for their punches to mean much. I.e. if you stall, they close the gap for you or stop fighting entirely if they sense if might not be a walkover.

Once you're in close it becomes a crap wrestling match and a trip or even a simple arm-around-the-neck hip throw is an instinctive win against the non grappler. People simply do not have a clue and almost always lead out with their left leg with no thought of what might happen next.

In real fights, the aggressor is always looking for the quick kill. They sense weakness and go full tilt for a short time. Before they see their chance they use the mouth and intimidation tactics. If they do get ahead then that is when they really turn nasty, like kicking you in the head when you're already down and injured. I've always thought it was like lions and wildebeest - whilst there is a chance the prey might kick the lion they are sneaky and respectful but as soon as they get ahead it's full kill mode. I almost never saw a fair fight between two equally matched people. Mostly it's sucker punches, 4 on 1, big bastard vs scared skinny dude and so on. They're not stupid, they generally only get involved if they're sure they can win. Only the very drunk get involved in a fair fight and they're not all that effective!

This is just what I've noticed from being in and seeing fights in British pubs etc.

 

[jclaudevandamme]

Ignore the cocky agitators and walk away. In the scope of life they mean precisely zero.

Actually, every self-defense system that does not use this as it primary basis is a low grade self defense system.

Anyway, to simply think that all SD situations can be solved just like that is to be too naive.

my point was that tani otoshi is easier and higher percentage. That is universally agreed upon by judo practitioners, which is why many more experienced players hate them. It lets lesser skilled compete with higher skilled. if the penalty for missing can be serious danger or death, this is exactly the kind of throw you need.

If you try a Tani Otoshi and fail and I will stomp your face, your balls, or punch your face, or your balls. It is a good throw... for gym fighters. REAL street fighters like me will kill ya if you ever pull and fail one of these.

 

[Einarr]

Osoto Gari, one of my favorite throws and a definite fight-finisher on an untrained attacker.

 

[Charles Brown]

O Guruma (Soto Momo Harai)

There's a reason why I learned it at two different law enforcement academies before ever taking any JJJ classes.

 

[Einarr]

Far more judo matches are won by tani otoshi than all other techniques combined.

This isn't true. The top scoring competition throw in Judo is Uchi Mata.

 

[aries]

I've been in a number of real fights when I was younger. I knew a bit of judo but no BJJ then. From that experience I found it was very easy to ground people using either osoto or kouchi gari.

As for being hit on the way in - it's actually pretty easy to avoid connecting with solid punches if you keep your distance and keep your hands up and away from you to both block and measure distance. You just keep backing away as they come in. What I found was that they get very quickly annoyed with not being able to land a hay-maker and try to grab your forearms, presumably to clear the space to hit you in the face (they always want to hit your face for some reason) or to pull you closer to stop you backing away all the time. It's then a simple matter to grab their arms or wrists and move in too close for their punches to mean much. I.e. if you stall, they close the gap for you or stop fighting entirely if they sense if might not be a walkover.

Once you're in close it becomes a crap wrestling match and a trip or even a simple arm-around-the-neck hip throw is an instinctive win against the non grappler. People simply do not have a clue and almost always lead out with their left leg with no thought of what might happen next.

In real fights, the aggressor is always looking for the quick kill. They sense weakness and go full tilt for a short time. Before they see their chance they use the mouth and intimidation tactics. If they do get ahead then that is when they really turn nasty, like kicking you in the head when you're already down and injured. I've always thought it was like lions and wildebeest - whilst there is a chance the prey might kick the lion they are sneaky and respectful but as soon as they get ahead it's full kill mode. I almost never saw a fair fight between two equally matched people. Mostly it's sucker punches, 4 on 1, big bastard vs scared skinny dude and so on. They're not stupid, they generally only get involved if they're sure they can win. Only the very drunk get involved in a fair fight and they're not all that effective!

This is just what I've noticed from being in and seeing fights in British pubs etc.

Great observations. All very true from what I've seen.

 

[Patrick F Carey]

I swear everyone needs to be good at blast doubles off of jabs. super simple

 

[Uchi Mata]

This isn't true. The top scoring competition throw in Judo is Uchi Mata.

I thought it was seio nage and uchi mata was #2? Not that it matters, they were always pretty close in %s, and tani otoshi is nowhere near the top. The list of top scorers at the last Olympics was something like:

1. seio nage
2. uchi mata
3. pins
4. foot sweeps of all types
5. osoto gari
6. ouchi gari
7. submissions
8. pickups

Something like that.

 

[madgrappler]

I thought it was seio nage and uchi mata was #2? Not that it matters, they were always pretty close in %s, and tani otoshi is nowhere near the top. The list of top scorers at the last Olympics was something like:

1. seio nage
2. uchi mata
3. pins
4. foot sweeps of all types
5. osoto gari
6. ouchi gari
7. submissions
8. pickups

Something like that.

That's likely to be true. The rules have changed since I was doing judo back in the day. Back then you could be a grappling counter-puncher and wait on your opponent. Now the rules force you to be a rabid monkey blender of offense.

 

[madgrappler]

I feel like this is a personal shout-out to me....



I'm not sold on a couple of things... you need to be *very* good at takedown/break to do it quickly enough to get back up and avoid stomps etc, better to jab jab jab, throat punch, groin kick, knee kick, eye poke while moving away looking for your opportunity to escape - but in terms of the overall philosophy I couldn't agree more. He demonstrates uchi mata in the video and that is a respectable option (though I still feel for most people in most situations that is not the highest percentage option) - but if you are going to try td/break in this scenario you better be very good at it. A situation like this is so fluid and there are so many variables it would be very difficult to come up with a coherent strategy that covers a fraction of scenarios you might face.

1. If you find yourself facing multiple attackers in all likelihood you've done multiple things wrong and should never be in this situation - unless you are a navy seal completing a mission objective in which case I assume you are equipped, having trained how to kill six to eight people in 2 seconds or less in close quarters, and you know and accept that you face death on a daily basis, otherwise you are in big trouble.

2. Once multiple attackers engage you, the odds are not in your favor no matter who you are. There is no martial art that gives you eight arms and eyes in the back of your head. I know someone will trot out the russian boxer knocking dudes out running backwards but if I don't care how skilled you think you are at any striking art, if you rely on this kind of lucky punching to survive you are a fool and most likely going to die.

3. All your efforts should be geared towards escaping. If you can't escape disable your attackers as quickly and efficiently as you can. The odds are not in your favor - the quicker you escape the better your odds of surviving unscathed - good luck.

4. This scenario if far better survived by avoiding or defusing it than any other way. If you seek it out or don't run from it, you deserve whatever happens to you for being so stupid.

 

[The Colonel]

I remember from reading Don Draper's "Judo Training Methods" (written in the 60's I think) that the top scoring judo takedowns were: o-soto-gari, uchi-mata, tai-o-toshi, ippon seoi nage and ouchi gari.

 

[Jagcorps_esq]

I thought it was seio nage and uchi mata was #2? Not that it matters, they were always pretty close in %s, and tani otoshi is nowhere near the top. The list of top scorers at the last Olympics was something like:

1. seio nage
2. uchi mata
3. pins
4. foot sweeps of all types
5. osoto gari
6. ouchi gari
7. submissions
8. pickups

Something like that.

A list I once saw from the 90's had it:

1. Uchi mata
2. Seio nage
3. Kata garume

for the top three ippon throws.

 

[Modern Warrior1]

2 on 1 and armdrags to the bodylock as he strikes. lift him, step back, and drop his ass. then, run.