Takedown in SD situation

[georgwilhelm**]

Still, what would your go-to throw be in a SD situation?

 

[jclaudevandamme]

Still, what would your go-to throw be in a SD situation?

O Soto Gari

 

[seatea]

O Soto Gari

This. The third leading cause of death in Japan behind heart failure and Godzilla.

 

[Uchi Mata]

O Soto Gari

I'd seriously worry about my personal liability, but this would be my go-to as well. Even though it could kill someone (head on concrete, don't know how to fall, drunk...scary). I see more concussions from Osoto than any other throw.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Which one would you choose?

The double leg is often considered the easiest and fastest. But first, I would really have a problem dropping my forward knee on conrete in a fast movement. And second, if it fails you are f'ed, because you opponent is standing and you might be eating knees or a head kick.

Judo throws which are executed in a more upright position might have the problem of getting close enough w/o eating too many punches. Or even a knee to the groin. But what do you do against a bigger, stronger opponent whom you might not throw so easily and who is trying to hit you anyway? Is there a double leg without the knee drop?

The last thing i would worry about in a sd situation is getting my knee scraped on concrete...

 

[KGB256]

Wow. You need to retrain your common sense. Watch some gracie challenge matches, like the one on the beach, and rethink this.

All due respect, typical Gracie challenge matches are one-on-one fights in which both participants are aware of what is going on in advance. Self-defense situations can involve weapons, multiple attackers, and/or the element of surprise. It's generally not a great idea to take a fight to the ground when you don't know if someone else is going to kick or stomp you.

As someone else said, there are takedown variants that don't require you to drop to the knee. And to echo an earlier point, you don't want to use a judo throw that you're not extremely comfortable with.

Let's also make sure we are analyzing the situation and looking to remove yourself at first opportunity. You are not Batman. Why engage an opponent unless you have no choice? And if left with no choice, your first priority after survival should be escape. I can think of very few scenarios in which it is necessary to both engage and subdue an opponent.

 

[madgrappler]

All due respect, typical Gracie challenge matches are one-on-one fights in which both participants are aware of what is going on in advance. Self-defense situations can involve weapons, multiple attackers, and/or the element of surprise. It's generally not a great idea to take a fight to the ground when you don't know if someone else is going to kick or stomp you.

As someone else said, there are takedown variants that don't require you to drop to the knee. And to echo an earlier point, you don't want to use a judo throw that you're not extremely comfortable with.

Let's also make sure we are analyzing the situation and looking to remove yourself at first opportunity. You are not Batman. Why engage an opponent unless you have no choice? And if left with no choice, your first priority after survival should be escape. I can think of very few scenarios in which it is necessary to both engage and subdue an opponent.

I've had street fights, I've never been jumped by multiples. 1. Stay out of the situation. 2. Extract yourself peacefully if you can 3. If you can't, make the guy regret forcing your hand.

Usually once the one guy styling for his friends starts getting tooled the friends don't jump in to help, I've never seen that happen. If there is a gang with weapons about to do violence to you, you really only have one sensible option: run.

 

[georgwilhelm**]

Pleasepleaseplease, let's not turn this question into a buddies/aidsneedles/weapons thread. I just wanna know which takedown people consider the most effective and - most importantly - easiest to execute under stress against a stronger fist swinging opponent.

I thought about O soto gari, it used to be my fav throw when I was doing a little bit of judo. But you have to get pretty close in a very "open" manner. Personally, I always try something like a mixture of Harai goshi and Tai otoshi. Instinctively (when I "fight" with friends) I grap around the head and turn my upper body (to avoid hits to the face) and lean forward in a twisting motion trying to drag my opponentover my outer leg. Also I can generate mor power by turning and twisting my upper body and dragging him with me, rather than forcing him to one side and then reaping the leg.

 

[madgrappler]

Pleasepleaseplease, let's not turn this question into a buddies/aidsneedles/weapons thread. I just wanna know which takedown people consider the most effective and - most importantly - easiest to execute under stress against a stronger fist swinging opponent.

wraps, trips, all the "cheesy" stuff that won't get you any respect in a judo dojo, cause they are too easy.

I thought about O soto gari, it used to be my fav throw when I was doing a little bit of judo. But you have to get pretty close in a very "open" manner. Personally, I always try something like a mixture of Harai goshi and Tai otoshi. Instinctively (when I "fight" with friends) I grap around the head and turn my upper body (to avoid hits to the face) and lean forward in a twisting motion trying to drag my opponentover my outer leg. Also I can generate mor power by turning and twisting my upper body and dragging him with me, rather than forcing him to one side and then reaping the leg.

All respectable options. The main thing is to be all the way in with head close or all the way out of range. Clinch, then trip. Easiest, works most consistently, especially when the guy is off balancing himself trying to get into position to punch you.

 

[jclaudevandamme]

But you have to get pretty close in a very "open" manner.

That is just a way of gripping that you do due to no striking rules in Judo. If you were going in the streets you would do a traditional double underhooks or tricep grap-underhook clinch. Then you just need to work from there.

 

[Uchi Mata]

When I see Judo used in MMA, Osoto and Ouchi Gari are the most common throws. Quite a few hip throws, with or without the sweeping leg as well. Jon Jones has a mean sasae, though I doubt he thinks of it that way.

 

[QingTian]

I think in SD you cannot just expect to know only grappling AND not get struck. You need to at least know how to put your hands up and keep the distance until the time is right. A takedown should happen because it is there, not because you want to force one. That is a basic strategy - take what is there.

If you face a guy who is a striker and knows how to keep his distance, then you will always have the risk of eating it. Someone untrained will open up and come to you eventually - just do the takedown you are best at.

 

[hobowarslover]

use teh dedlies kung fu flying squirrel takedown, too secret for the mmas

 

[KGB256]

Pleasepleaseplease, let's not turn this question into a buddies/aidsneedles/weapons thread. I just wanna know which takedown people consider the most effective and - most importantly - easiest to execute under stress against a stronger fist swinging opponent.

Wasn't going for that at all. I just saw mad make a really ignorant comment and nobody called him on it. Going to the ground in a self-defense situation is a risky proposition, and that needs to be said. Not because the ground is lava, but because in most self-defense situations you can't afford to assume you are safe there.

If I had to take someone down, my personal preference would be a GSP-style double. Put him down, take a dominant position like KOB where you can still extract yourself easily, and take it from there.

 

[shunyata]

When I see Judo used in MMA, Osoto and Ouchi Gari are the most common throws. Quite a few hip throws, with or without the sweeping leg as well. Jon Jones has a mean sasae, though I doubt he thinks of it that way.

Yeah these throws are all much safer than a double leg in a no rules situation as well.

In a no rules situation people can elbow the back of your head when go for a double. A good clinch is safer and has a plethora of options in terms of reaps, hip throws, foot sweeps and more.

That is just a way of gripping that you do due to no striking rules in Judo. If you were going in the streets you would do a traditional double underhooks or tricep grap-underhook clinch. Then you just need to work from there.

Yeah just practice throws with no gi grips and it starts to make sense. Under over, underhook tricep, double unders, and deep underhook with a wrist control can all be applied. Some throws work better with one or another they just need to be adapted to a lack of gi.

I like under over or deep underhook with a wrist control for a no gi tai otoshi which is one of my high percentage throws

 

[Ice 9 Cobra]

They might be able to throw an elbow, but the entire takedown will last seconds. The concept of sprawling and using your hips to defend a double is definitely not intuitive, so a double won't be a long ordeal

 

[Deltafarce]

I'm old out of shape, broken and lazy. There is no way I'm going for a double leg.

Foot sweeps, trips, arm drags and maybe a hip toss if the moment was right. I've had good luck with those

 

[KGB256]

I've had street fights, I've never been jumped by multiples. 1. Stay out of the situation. 2. Extract yourself peacefully if you can 3. If you can't, make the guy regret forcing your hand.

Usually once the one guy styling for his friends starts getting tooled the friends don't jump in to help, I've never seen that happen. If there is a gang with weapons about to do violence to you, you really only have one sensible option: run.

In my old stomping grounds (i.e. Detroit's Cass Corridor), you get your friends' backs and they get yours. I've personally kicked a dude in the mouth when he was on top of my buddy beating on him. I've seen knives and even guns get pulled on folks. I've been jumped by multiple people before (thank God for my friends), and I've seen guys get the crap stomped out of them when they wound up on the ground against multiple people.

And the funny part? That's just from silly fights at the bar. That's not even the guy trying to jack your car or grab your wallet. Do you trust that guy not to have a buddy waiting in the wings if things go sideways?

It's a pretty simple answer: if you don't know all the details of the situation, you don't want to be on the ground at all...certainly not any longer than you have to. And you don't want to stick around any longer than is necessary to get yourself safely clear of the situation. Your suggestion that Gracie challenge matches prove otherwise is an ignorant and dangerous comment.

 

[madgrappler]

I think in SD you cannot just expect to know only grappling AND not get struck.

Uh - hate to break it to you, its not exactly news, but that's exactly what the gracies have been doing for about 50 years now. It works better than anything else, and is the reason a mixed martial artist coming from striking has zero chance of success without takedown defense and ground defense, while Demian Maia could get to a title shot with nothing but his ground game.

You need to at least know how to put your hands up and keep the distance until the time is right.

Does no one here have any familiarity at all at how you start out at a gracie certified training center? You drill this over and over getting punched with gloves and have to test the techniques under duress to get your first belt.

A takedown should happen because it is there, not because you want to force one. That is a basic strategy - take what is there.

Unless you are facing someone with developed takedown defense and striking experience, this is not true at all. It is the easiest thing in the world to takedown karate or aikido blackbelts with no exposure to any grappling arts. Grappling and takedowns are the single biggest advantage you can have in a physical confrontation. That's what we starting learning in the US with UFC1. Any other view is based on faith, not evidence.

If you face a guy who is a striker and knows how to keep his distance, then you will always have the risk of eating it. Someone untrained will open up and come to you eventually - just do the takedown you are best at.

It is true - but what are the odds of getting knocked out if you yourself are managing the distance? Never in striking range is the trick. All the way in or all the way out. Clinch or distance. When he attacks he is vulnerable. If he doesn't attack, then you have no problem, do you?

Far more judo matches are won by tani otoshi than all other techniques combined. Why do you think that is?

 

[snoop dogg***]

if you look at GSP he never drops his knee fror the TD