Takedown in SD situation

[madgrappler]

I remember from reading Don Draper's "Judo Training Methods" (written in the 60's I think) that the top scoring judo takedowns were: o-soto-gari, uchi-mata, tai-o-toshi, ippon seoi nage and ouchi gari.

I don't think that's correct. I can't really say - but maybe someone more expereinced in judo could say.

I saw a couple penalties in the judo comp I was watching a couple months ago and in trying to understand current rules I eventually gave up. The rules are geared to produce more feet-over-ass type throws I guess in the theory that people will want to watch that more. I think that's wrong, and I think modern MMA shows you why. But many competative BJJ orgs are doing the same thing, making arbitrary rule changes designed to make it more offense oriented and "watchable." Which is utter bull, to my mind.


A couple blogs I just found that talk about attitudes toward tani-otoshi that are dumb and counter-productive:

http://www.baffledexperts.com/table-of-contents/5-the-throws/8-sacrifice-throws/

"Be a real fighter, not a counter fighter."

http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/s...defense-or-useless-against-experienced-Judoka

Black belt says tani otoshi is a "cheat."

Why do they dislike it? See if you can figure it out from this video.

 

[seatea]

That's not tani-otoshi.

 

[madgrappler]

That's not tani-otoshi.

Why don't you find and post a video of whatever you think tani otoshi is for comparison.

 

[seatea]

Why don't you find and post a video of whatever you think tani otoshi is for comparison.

Notice the leg sliding behind uke.



http://britishjudoeducation.org.uk/blue/tani-otoshi/

 

[madgrappler]

Notice the leg sliding behind uke.



http://britishjudoeducation.org.uk/blue/tani-otoshi/

That is also a tani otoshi. What do you think the difference is? And what throw in the first video of the kids?

 

[seatea]

That is also a tani otoshi. What do you think the difference is? And what throw in the first video of the kids?

The leg sliding behind uke and less rotation. The throw the kid used in your video was a ura-nage.

 

[madgrappler]

The leg sliding behind uke and less rotation. The throw the kid used in your video was a ura-nage.

You are kidding right? That must be a joke. Ura-nage is a lifting throw the requires wrapping your arms around the waist and picking the uke up, bending yourself backwards to throw. The throw I posted the video of is nothing like that.

tani otoshi is dragging the uke over your leg behind him. ura nage is lifting, tani otoshi is dragging down. Very easy to tell the difference. The kid doesn't do it perfectly, he only gets behind one leg and doesn't turn and sit, all of which make it more efficient and easier to use the momentum to come on top after the throw, but that's part of my point. A child is able to counter a larger child of higher belt successfully with it using very mediocre technique.

I've seen variations taught that have one leg hooked and other non-traditional forms of tani-otoshi but the basic principle is tripping the guy over your leg behind him and dragging him down. If that's what happens its tani-otoshi.

Why do you think the video posted is not tani otoshi? What details make you say ura-nage? I don't see any resemblance at all.

 

[devante]

It's actually not that hard. Plus, the average guy on the street is as likely to fall over themselves if they connect with a punch as they are to hurt you. It's not like they're going to be throwing straight, hard technical jabs. If a guy with no training is going to punch you, you'll probably know for a full second at least that he's swinging.

Once you're in the clinch, even if he's a little bigger if you have a little Judo you can probably get the throw pretty easy. Especially if he's drunk.

If you doubt me, YouTube 'Judo parking lot tranny'. It's not sexual in any way (though it's a little odd, believe me), but it is a (seriously) great demonstration of how well Judo works in a real fight.

Lyle Beerbohm...disagrees with you he got in fight prison and had a very hard time taking down a larger untrained guy; in fact he said the dude was kinda laying a beating on him until he got him down.... and back when the Gracie's first came and had challenge matches I read many accounts of large athletic guys who were able to defend takedowns or get takedowns and land punches on established blkblts w/history in challenge matches. Not saying you can't take a guy down, but this whole idea any trainee guy can easily take down or keep down or keep from being taken down by abigher stronger opponent is ridiculous; I seen multiple times trained guys have a hard time taking down a big strong athletic guy or getting taken down and getting beat on.

 

[madgrappler]

The leg sliding behind uke and less rotation. The throw the kid used in your video was a ura-nage.

Here's a variation of tani-otoshi a little more similar minus the leg grab.



more similar to the above than a "proper" tani otoshi like:



but it is, definately and without question, tani otoshi.

 

[seatea]

basic principle is tripping the guy over your leg behind him and dragging him down. If that's what happens its tani-otoshi.

Why do you think the video posted is not tani otoshi? What details make you say ura-nage? I don't see any resemblance at all.

The key detail is the leg sliding behind uke, the kid did not do that.

 

[Jagcorps_esq]

but it is, definately and without question, tani otoshi.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but there is a question.

There are at least two people questioning whether or not that is a tani otoshi.

The other guy and myself, because it looks way more like ura nage than tani otoshi to me too.

 

[madgrappler]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but there is a question.

There are at least two people questioning whether or not that is a tani otoshi.

The other guy and myself, because it looks way more like ura nage than tani otoshi to me too.

Maybe I'm just missing something. What is the difference between ura nage and tani otoshi?

 

[madgrappler]

The key detail is the leg sliding behind uke, the kid did not do that.

Disagree. I can find you 100 variations being taught that don't have any "leg sliding."

 

[Jagcorps_esq]

Maybe I'm just missing something. What is the difference between ura nageand tani otoshi?

I see the difference and sliding the leg behind, so that it is the leg that stops uke's ability to step backwards. In both videos you posted, the tori fell..allowing his weight to pull the person.

In the kid's situation, he lifted and spun rather than sacrificing (falling) and using a trip behind uke's legs. It is the lift that, to me, makes it ura nage.

 

[madgrappler]

I see the difference and sliding the leg behind, so that it is the leg that stops uke's ability to step backwards.

In the kid's situation, he lifted and spun rather than sacrificing (falling) and using a trip behind uke's legs.

I just couldn't disagree more. The kid didn't lift at all, he drug downward. Its almost like we are looking at two different videos. In the one I'm watching the kid clearly does tani otoshi. I don't know what you are looking at. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Anyhoo original point stands.

You guys all have a good day.

 

[Jagcorps_esq]

I just couldn't disagree more. The kid didn't lift at all, he drug downward. Its almost like we are looking at two different videos. In the one I'm watching the kid clearly does tani otoshi. I don't know what you are looking at. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Anyhoo original point stands.

You guys all have a good day.

I'm sure you could disagree with me more about some other actual matter of importance. But maybe not.

If this distinction really is the most important thing in your world, fine. Have it. It's a shitty tani otoshi. So shitty, that it is hardly recognizable.

 

[madgrappler]

It's a shitty tani otoshi.

Yes it is. And still worked.

And very recognizable also.

 

[seatea]

Maybe I'm just missing something. What is the difference between ura nage and tani otoshi?

Ura-nage. The part the kid missed (but didn't really need to do) was the lift.

Tani-otoshi. Tori's leg slides (on the heel) behind uke.

The reasons (in case I haven't stated it clearly) for me believe the throw shown to be ura-nage rather than tani-otoshi is the fact that he doesn't slide his leg behind uke and, to a lesser extent, because of tori's rotation. It isn't a hon ura-nage but it is a variation.

 

[karrim]

I'd seriously worry about my personal liability, but this would be my go-to as well. Even though it could kill someone (head on concrete, don't know how to fall, drunk...scary). I see more concussions from Osoto than any other throw.

judo in general doesn't work for people who can't resist punches to the face. if you wanna try to throw a guy with judo techniques, you gotta be ready to get punched to your face before throwing him down. this video is the best example:



the fight starts at 1:55, and the judo guy failed to do O Soto Gari at 2:07. in fact, the judo guy was trying to throw him, but unfortunatly he couldn't because he was eating punches. Guess what!the fat guy saved him! in my opinion, wrestling(double/single leg) is more useful than judo throws in SF. if the guy grabs you, then quickly fall and pull your guard and start playing BJJ. Or, you can train boxing which will help you to absorb punches and be able dodge punches and etc...and that's my advice bro!

 

[madgrappler]

judo in general doesn't work for people who can't resist punches to the face. if you wanna try to throw a guy with judo techniques, you gotta be ready to get punched to your face before throwing him down. this video is the best example:



the fight starts at 1:55, and the judo guy failed to do O Soto Gari at 2:07. in fact, the judo guy was trying to throw him, but unfortunatly he couldn't because he was eating punches. Guess what!the fat guy saved him! in my opinion, wrestling(double/single leg) is more useful than judo throws in SF. if the guy grabs you, then quickly fall and pull your guard and start playing BJJ. Or, you can train boxing which will help you to absorb punches and be able dodge punches and etc...and that's my advice bro!

That's a great find. I wish I had a non-gracie challenge video of someone doing the following. 1. Stay back. 2. Protect from punches 3. Get the clinch 4. slide to the side 5. put your leg behind him, block the far heel with your foot 6. holding the guy around the waist, sit down, dragging the guy backwards over your leg, use the momentum to roll on top into mount.

It works, *very* high percentage, takes no strength and very little technique, you only have to have done it a few times to use it effectively: IOW the perfect self defense sequence.