Economy Study: Middle Class Is Over

[franklinstower]

Ahh yes nothing helps the middle class more than more taxes!

When the increase in taxes paid is LESS than you are already paying for private medical insurance premiums it sure as hell does.

 

[panamaican]

I actually had graduated by then but just barely. Think I misspoke back there. I’d have to reread. Trying to do too many things at once.

Let me do this again
30 and sharing a two bed
60 and then had a kid with someone I separated with before I had the child
She stayed drunk but paid some stuff and we roughly split custody
Found another new job
New wife pregnant now but we make 130000

Ok. I guess I'm asking too many questions. I'll try to simplify. You were single when making $30 but sharing a space.

Was that with the gf or someone else? Did you get married before or after you started the new program? If you got married before or during the program - did the wife work?

Curiosity - I think you're ex-military, right? And did they pay for the program or did you self-fund?

 

[Headkicktoleg]

When the increase in taxes paid is LESS than you are already paying for private medical insurance premiums it sure as hell does.

insurance is just the tip of what bernie wants to take your money for.

 

[NoDak]

Actually the increase in productivity having to do with technology is a part of the argument for higher wages. The question is who should be able to share in the collective moment forward of humanity on the level of technology. I am in the camp that technological breakthroughs should benefit all people and not just companies and corporations.

Lol @ being in any other camp. That would make you an utter fucking scumbag, or possibly: just deeply ignorant to how technology comes about and the publicly funded and conducted scientific research that has laid the foundation for the vast majority of private sector innovations at the development stage of turning fundamental knowledge into products and processes. Society at large must stand to benefit - to a discernable degree at minimum - or you're begging for nothing short of pitchforks and bloody revolution.

 

[luckyshot]

If you haven't read the bible maybe you should not try to use it to bolster your arguments. The bible clearly states in multiple places in almost every book including the seeming preoccupation of Jesus that we should strive to feed and cloth the poor and ensure that everyone is given medical care. The bible does not state anywhere that because man is fallen or because sin is so prevalent that we should not strive to make the world better. In fact the weight of scripture comes out decidedly against your point.

Here is Jesus on this subject--
“There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

“So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’

“But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

“Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’

“Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’

“And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’

“But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead’ ”


Also man you don't need to straw-man my arguments in order to discuss my points.

You assume I would make more money and have more if we had UHC. I would not. Most of my friends who all voted for Bernie in the primaries are well off. Many of them are so well off that they would lose a good chunk of money voting the way they do.

I am not in their camp but would certainly not have more money because of UHC. We already have health insurance. You think that most people are motivated towards these policies in order to GET something for free (that's what FOX says all the time). My experience is that many of us want these polices in order to GIVE.

No one I know thinks we are going to usher in the kingdom of heaven through legislation man. UHC and a livable minimum wage are not in any danger of replacing Christ and his kingdom...... if you think that then you have a very impoverished view of His kingdom indeed.

Lots of countries have found a way to provide these basics for all people rich and poor alike and a utopia it is not. We can do the same, probably better and more efficiently, and still be in profound need of a savior.....

Here are some more words from the Savior on the poor.

1. Luke 6:20-21
   Then he looked up at his disciples and said: ‘Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. Blessed are you who are hungry now, for you will be filled. Blessed are you who weep now, for you will laugh.’
2. Luke 4:16-19
   When he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, he went to the synagogue on the sabbath day, as was his custom. He stood up to read, and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written: ‘The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to bring good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favour.’
3. Matthew 25:34-36
   Then the king will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’
4. Mark 10:21-22
   Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said, ‘You lack one thing; go, sell what you own, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.’ When he heard this, he was shocked and went away grieving, for he had many possessions.
5. Mark 12:41-44
   He sat down opposite the treasury, and watched the crowd putting money into the treasury. Many rich people put in large sums. A poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which are worth a penny. Then he called his disciples and said to them, ‘Truly I tell you, this poor widow has put in more than all those who are contributing to the treasury. For all of them have contributed out of their abundance; but she out of her poverty has put in everything she had, all she had to live on.’
6. Luke 14:12-14
   He said also to the one who had invited him, ‘When you give a luncheon or a dinner, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, in case they may invite you in return, and you would be repaid. But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, and the blind. And you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you, for you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.’
7. Luke 16:19-25
   There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who longed to satisfy his hunger with what fell from the rich man’s table; even the dogs would come and lick his sores. The poor man died and was carried away by the angels to be with Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried.
8. Luke 11:39-42
   Then the Lord said to him, ‘Now you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness. You fools! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also? So give for alms those things that are within; and see, everything will be clean for you. But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and herbs of all kinds, and neglect justice and the love of God.’
9. Luke 12:16-21
   Then he told them a parable: ‘The land of a rich man produced abundantly. And he thought to himself, ‘What should I do, for I have no place to store my crops?’ Then he said, ‘I will do this: I will pull down my barns and build larger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. And I will say to my soul, ‘Soul, you have ample goods laid up for many years; relax, eat, drink, be merry.’ But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your life is being demanded of you. And the things you have prepared, whose will they be?’ So it is with those who store up treasures for themselves but are not rich toward God.’

You can't argue theology with a schismatic. Part of the danger of protestantism is that it encourages everyone to interpret the Bible for himself-- even those who are clearly incapable of doing so-- and leaves people easy dupes for false teachers who have no weight of authority or tradition.

"The point of Christianity is that we can never overcome sin in society, so we should just stop trying and wait for Jesus to come back."

Lol. OK. Talk about flying directly in the face of EVERY legitimate teaching of the Church, starting with the first Christians who were noted for their unusual desire to care for widows and orphans.

This is ultimately what it boils down to. I'm not sure if it states this in the Bible, or if I just heard a teaching on this from somewhere

... and... case in point.

 

[ineverpost]

and this is why Bernie Sanders is gonna kill Donald Trump.


The 2016 match up we deserved!

He won't even win his own party's nomination. If he wants to still run, he'll split the left vote and hand Donald Trump a second term.

 

[franklinstower]

insurance is just the tip of what bernie wants to take your money for.

It depends on how much you make obviously. For me though the knowledge that no kids would ever go without medical care again and no family could ever go bankrupt just because their kid or wife or husband got sick and that the least among us would make enough to live a life of dignity makes every bit of it totally and completely worth it.

I dont for one second believe that Bernie's policies will take away from the things that actually bring me happiness and I know that his policies will definitely solve many of the aforementioned problems that really keep me up at night.

We are in a democracy though (sort of) so if you disagree vote your conscience. I will too.

 

[cincymma79]

Sure you can live but you’re likely not saving for retirement or putting those kids through college which is what he middle class used to be able to do

All those people I talk about are doing that
Fix your lifestyle

 

[ineverpost]

It's simple really. The Federal Reserve continuously pumps money into the economy which causes hyper inflation, while at the same time boosting the stock markets. Only wealthy people can consistently make real money through long term investments int he market. This is the only way to beat inflation, through the artificial returns in the market. In 10 years, a loaf of bread will cost $20 and we'll be in big trouble.

 

[TheComebackKid]

If you haven't read the bible maybe you should not try to use it to bolster your arguments. The bible clearly states in multiple places in almost every book including the seeming preoccupation of Jesus that we should strive to feed and cloth the poor and ensure that everyone is given medical care. The bible does not state anywhere that because man is fallen or because sin is so prevalent that we should not strive to make the world better. In fact the weight of scripture comes out decidedly against your point.

Here is Jesus on this subject--
“There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

“So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’

“But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

“Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’

“Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’

“And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’

“But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead’ ”


Also man you don't need to straw-man my arguments in order to discuss my points.

You assume I would make more money and have more if we had UHC. I would not. Most of my friends who all voted for Bernie in the primaries are well off. Many of them are so well off that they would lose a good chunk of money voting the way they do.

I am not in their camp but would certainly not have more money because of UHC. We already have health insurance. You think that most people are motivated towards these policies in order to GET something for free (that's what FOX says all the time). My experience is that many of us want these polices in order to GIVE.

No one I know thinks we are going to usher in the kingdom of heaven through legislation man. UHC and a livable minimum wage are not in any danger of replacing Christ and his kingdom...... if you think that then you have a very impoverished view of His kingdom indeed.

Lots of countries have found a way to provide these basics for all people rich and poor alike and a utopia it is not. We can do the same, probably better and more efficiently, and still be in profound need of a savior.....

Here are some more words from the Savior on the poor.

1. Luke 6:20-21
   Then he looked up at his disciples and said: ‘Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. Blessed are you who are hungry now, for you will be filled. Blessed are you who weep now, for you will laugh.’
2. Luke 4:16-19
   When he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, he went to the synagogue on the sabbath day, as was his custom. He stood up to read, and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written: ‘The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to bring good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favour.’
3. Matthew 25:34-36
   Then the king will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’
4. Mark 10:21-22
   Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said, ‘You lack one thing; go, sell what you own, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.’ When he heard this, he was shocked and went away grieving, for he had many possessions.
5. Mark 12:41-44
   He sat down opposite the treasury, and watched the crowd putting money into the treasury. Many rich people put in large sums. A poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which are worth a penny. Then he called his disciples and said to them, ‘Truly I tell you, this poor widow has put in more than all those who are contributing to the treasury. For all of them have contributed out of their abundance; but she out of her poverty has put in everything she had, all she had to live on.’
6. Luke 14:12-14
   He said also to the one who had invited him, ‘When you give a luncheon or a dinner, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, in case they may invite you in return, and you would be repaid. But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, and the blind. And you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you, for you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.’
7. Luke 16:19-25
   There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who longed to satisfy his hunger with what fell from the rich man’s table; even the dogs would come and lick his sores. The poor man died and was carried away by the angels to be with Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried.
8. Luke 11:39-42
   Then the Lord said to him, ‘Now you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness. You fools! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also? So give for alms those things that are within; and see, everything will be clean for you. But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and herbs of all kinds, and neglect justice and the love of God.’
9. Luke 12:16-21
   Then he told them a parable: ‘The land of a rich man produced abundantly. And he thought to himself, ‘What should I do, for I have no place to store my crops?’ Then he said, ‘I will do this: I will pull down my barns and build larger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. And I will say to my soul, ‘Soul, you have ample goods laid up for many years; relax, eat, drink, be merry.’ But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your life is being demanded of you. And the things you have prepared, whose will they be?’ So it is with those who store up treasures for themselves but are not rich toward God.’

I think you missed most of if not all of what I was saying. I also think you're misapplying scripture when you try and use it to support things like uhc.

 

[franklinstower]

You can't argue theology with a schizmatic. Part of the danger of Protestanism is that it encourages everyone to interpret the Bible for himself-- even those who are clearly incapable of doing so-- and leaves people easy dupes for false teachers who have no weight of authority or tradition.

"The point of Christianity is that we can never overcome sin in society so we should just stop trying and wait for Jesus to come back."

Lol. OK. Talk about flying directly in the face of EVERY legitimate teaching of the Church, starting with the first Christians who were noted for their unusual desire to care for widows and orphans.

Yeah pretty crazy man. I was raised in the new age movement and it was the same there. Every teacher claiming to have special enlightenment and truly understanding Christ unlike the entirety of Christendom. lie after lie told about Jesus and the meaning of his teachings.

Then I just started to actually read about the religion and most especially the early church fathers. I could not believe the depth at which they heard His message..... it just blew my mind and converted me.

It also cured me of the notion that I or anyone could just read the scriptures written by multiple authors for multiple purposes to multiple audiences over centuries and just pull out of my own infinite wisdom the true meaning without consulting and studying what the masters of the spiritual life had so say and think about it all.

 

[Ripskater]

Ok, so people that have trouble earning enough money for basic things are spoiled brats, but rich people asking for even more are just great. I take it that you've given up your Christian charade by now?

No, if you have the necessities to live with all those luxuries in life and still complain, then you may be acting like spoiled brat. If you're not complaining, then you're not.

 

[TheFirstEMP]

https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/household-income-trump-economy/

"Economy: Median household income is up more than 4%, the economy is growing fast, optimism is at decades long highs. Not that you'd know it, since the press is too busy trying to drive President Trump from office.

Inflation-adjusted median household incomes in July hit $62,450 according to the latest release from Sentier Research. That's the highest level since Sentier started tracking this more than 18 years ago. And if you combine Sentier's numbers with annual Census data, median household income is at all-time highs."

The sky is falling.

 

[Oblivian]

All those people I talk about are doing that
Fix your lifestyle

It all depends on where you live. Mortgage payment/rent can vary drastically all over the US for similar homes. A family with a $60k income can definitely get by in many places, but there are others where that's just not going to cut it. People choose to live in these places and they pay does not match the cost of living at all.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Inflation doesn't necessarily drive wages up. Many times in the private and public sector companies/municipalities freeze wages to deal with their other rising cost.

Yes, it necessarily drives wages up (or maybe more accurately, wages are one of the key inputs that define it). Think about the implication of the claim that inflation causes wages to go down over a long period. You're saying that both parties in labor contracts are totally passive, that supply and demand and bargaining power don't affect the prices.

 

[franklinstower]

I think you missed most if not all of what saying. I also think you're misapplying scripture when you try and use it to support things like uhc.

I am not using scripture to support UHC. You were using scripture to support corporate greed and allowing the greedy to pilfer the whole country. I do support UHC based on my understanding of scripture BUT have no problem with someone taking a different tack to accomplish the ends scripture asks of us provided that person is actually trying to do so in a sincere way.

What is not negotiable though is that Jesus and scripture require that we sacrifice and fight for justice for the least among us. That is NOT negotiable in any way.

 

[cincymma79]

Ok. I guess I'm asking too many questions. I'll try to simplify. You were single when making $30 but sharing a space.

Was that with the gf or someone else? Did you get married before or after you started the new program? If you got married before or during the program - did the wife work?

Curiosity - I think you're ex-military, right? And did they pay for the program or did you self-fund?

Single with sister in other room

Got married before the program
Wife worked at first then went part time then no time then I kicked her out
Then she got pregnant and I helped pay her way in nursing school, well not the program just the living expenses part
Then it was just untenable any more. Had to
Miss work because she didn’t show up and shit like that
Military paid for a lot of my stuff took a little to play with since at he time loans were forgivable for my program in Kentucky if you stayed and worked there for five years (fucking assholes cancelled it while I was using it, but it’s he government I should have known better)

 

[cincymma79]

It all depends on where you live. Mortgage payment/rent can vary drastically all over the US for similar homes. A family with a $60k income can definitely get by in many places, but there are others where that's just not going to cut it. People choose to live in these places and they pay does not match the cost of living at all.

Stopping you at where you live
That’s a crap answer
Move
I liked California too but it was too expensive so I went back to Kentucky
It’s a one step solution

 

[luckyshot]

I think you're misapplying scripture when you try and use it to support things like uhc.

I'm not sure if it states this in the Bible, or if I just heard a teaching on this from somewhere

Pope Francis: Health care is part of the Church’s mission
https://cruxnow.com/vatican/2017/12/11/pope-francis-health-care-part-churchs-mission/
Health care is a right, not a privilege, pope says
http://www.catholicnews.com/service...care-is-a-right-not-a-privilege-pope-says.cfm
Pope Calls for Guaranteed Health Care
https://www.americamagazine.org/content/all-things/pope-calls-guaranteed-health-care

I think the Pope knows what's in the Bible.

 

[panamaican]

Single with sister in other room

Got married before the program
Wife worked at first then went part time then no time then I kicked her out
Then she got pregnant and I helped pay her way in nursing school, well not the program just the living expenses part
Then it was just untenable any more. Had to
Miss work because she didn’t show up and shit like that
Military paid for a lot of my stuff took a little to play with since at he time loans were forgivable for my program in Kentucky if you stayed and worked there for five years (fucking assholes cancelled it while I was using it, but it’s he government I should have known better)

Ok, thanks for your patience.

I was trying to suss out the 30-60 transition. My instinct was military but when you introduced the kid then I started wondering about spousal contributions.