This is ultimately what it boils down to. I'm not sure if it states this in the Bible, or if I just heard a teaching on this from somewhere, but there is no economic or government style/system that is going to actually "work" in the long run due to the fallen nature of human beings. The problem with communism, socialism, facism, ect is the fact that the power and wealth end up in the hands of a few who ultimately use it to exploit and abuse others due to their own greed and survival. Free market capitalism, especially when combined with government intervention and a rigged money system, is clearly leading to the same scenario.
And what we have seen the past 20 years is an increasingly hostile government/corporate class buck the will of the people and pursue blatantly anti-american, anti-freedom agendas. But this was always going to be outcome because free market capitalism and democracy is a flawed design based on human survival and human greed.
I say all that to say this...the only system that is ever going to work is a Kingdom under Christ's rule. That is the only system that will remove our fallen nature and allow for us to be the giving, caring, altruistic type of world
@franklinstower is looking for where we put other's needs ahead of our own comforts. Take the following quote:
Comparing this post to your post highlights what Jack Handy is saying about your intelligence and the wisdom that comes from common sense and "intrinsically knowing whats right". Here franklin is saying essentially the same thing you are saying. He identifies the problem just the same as you have. Yet your post and outlook has infinitely more wisdom because you have not only correctly identified the problem but also the solution...that being Christ.
Franklin is still searching for the solution. He seems to think he can fight and alleviate human greed and our fallen nature through government intervention as if the government isn't ran by humans as well. He also doesn't see the plank in his own eye and is quick to judge others where as your instinct is to refrain from judgement because you know, intrinsically, that we're all the same.
Allow me to explain. He readily admits that we live better than the vast majority of the world but still believes he is entitled to more wealth, and less work, simply because others have it better. Yet, he seems to not think much at all of the BILLIONS of people around the world who could use his assistance, his wealth, his time, his property. Sure he may donate to charity or volunteer his time(both great things) but is he going to give up his home, his car(s), his belongings, his kids toys, his families food, or sacrifice the bottom line of his business to improve the lives of people in the 3rd world living out of shacks? Hell, will he even support our US companies giving these people jobs if it means "moving jobs overseas" and away from America's middle class? Probably not. Yet he will demand that others sacrifice those things for himself when he is already living like a king compared to many people.
I'm not trying to bash Franklin as I'm sure he's a good guy. These were just some different thoughts I've had reading through the thread.
If you haven't read the bible maybe you should not try to use it to bolster your arguments. The bible clearly states in multiple places in almost every book including the seeming preoccupation of Jesus that we should strive to feed and cloth the poor and ensure that everyone is given medical care. The bible does not state anywhere that because man is fallen or because sin is so prevalent that we should not strive to make the world better. In fact the weight of scripture comes out decidedly against your point.
Here is Jesus on this subject--
“There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
“So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’
“But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
“Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’
“Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’
“And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’
“But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead’ ”
Also man you don't need to straw-man my arguments in order to discuss my points.
You assume I would make more money and have more if we had UHC. I would not. Most of my friends who all voted for Bernie in the primaries are well off. Many of them are so well off that they would lose a good chunk of money voting the way they do.
I am not in their camp but would certainly not have more money because of UHC. We already have health insurance. You think that most people are motivated towards these policies in order to GET something for free (that's what FOX says all the time). My experience is that many of us want these polices in order to GIVE.
No one I know thinks we are going to usher in the kingdom of heaven through legislation man. UHC and a livable minimum wage are not in any danger of replacing Christ and his kingdom...... if you think that then you have a very impoverished view of His kingdom indeed.
Lots of countries have found a way to provide these basics for all people rich and poor alike and a utopia it is not. We can do the same, probably better and more efficiently, and still be in profound need of a savior.....
Here are some more words from the Savior on the poor.
- Luke 6:20-21
Then he looked up at his disciples and said: ‘Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. Blessed are you who are hungry now, for you will be filled. Blessed are you who weep now, for you will laugh.’
- Luke 4:16-19
When he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, he went to the synagogue on the sabbath day, as was his custom. He stood up to read, and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written: ‘The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to bring good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favour.’
- Matthew 25:34-36
Then the king will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’
- Mark 10:21-22
Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said, ‘You lack one thing; go, sell what you own, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.’ When he heard this, he was shocked and went away grieving, for he had many possessions.
- Mark 12:41-44
He sat down opposite the treasury, and watched the crowd putting money into the treasury. Many rich people put in large sums. A poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which are worth a penny. Then he called his disciples and said to them, ‘Truly I tell you, this poor widow has put in more than all those who are contributing to the treasury. For all of them have contributed out of their abundance; but she out of her poverty has put in everything she had, all she had to live on.’
- Luke 14:12-14
He said also to the one who had invited him, ‘When you give a luncheon or a dinner, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, in case they may invite you in return, and you would be repaid. But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, and the blind. And you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you, for you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.’
- Luke 16:19-25
There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who longed to satisfy his hunger with what fell from the rich man’s table; even the dogs would come and lick his sores. The poor man died and was carried away by the angels to be with Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried.
- Luke 11:39-42
Then the Lord said to him, ‘Now you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness. You fools! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also? So give for alms those things that are within; and see, everything will be clean for you. But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and herbs of all kinds, and neglect justice and the love of God.’
- Luke 12:16-21
Then he told them a parable: ‘The land of a rich man produced abundantly. And he thought to himself, ‘What should I do, for I have no place to store my crops?’ Then he said, ‘I will do this: I will pull down my barns and build larger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. And I will say to my soul, ‘Soul, you have ample goods laid up for many years; relax, eat, drink, be merry.’ But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your life is being demanded of you. And the things you have prepared, whose will they be?’ So it is with those who store up treasures for themselves but are not rich toward God.’
