Economy Study: Middle Class Is Over

[TeTe]

Just going to say that this is the deciding factor imo. I read the first article, and no parameters are defined, and no sources are given.

Nevertheless, I would say there is a monumental difference between a "middle class" household at 40k, and a middle class household at 100k. I do not consider a 40k household of over 1 person middle class at all in this day and age, that is a low income household. To me middle class is about 60k and up for a house of 2, more if you have children.

---

However, in the article mentioned, I feel this thread is sort of twisting the wording. It states, "they experienced at least one type of material hardship in 2017". Meaning that say, someone could have been unable to pay an expensive medical bill (18%), but otherwise experience no other material hardship. This would not be a killing factor of the middle class. People in the grouping who experienced more than one is 23.7%. That sounds about right as people in the middle class of any era can pay a bill late once a year or struggle to pay a large medical. Furthermore, the largest signs of hardships are the lowest percentages, evicted and utility shut off at 1.1% and 4.3% respectively. It also states 60% of people with chronic medical conditions experienced a hardship, compared to 33% without. Though my favorite is this line - "The researchers found that 56 percent of Americans with less than a high school degree struggled to meet their basic needs. By comparison, just 24 percent of college grads experienced hardship.". An implication that the lowest levels required to be classified at middle class, such as a 40k household of 4, are higher in these rates than a household of 80k. This is all from the article in the OP.

So while we would need more information such as defined income ranges, locations relative to salary, and children numbers, I reached a completely different answer from your same source material.

I agree, I even go as far to say in general terms... lower middle class, middle class and upper middle class when defining this.

A combined household income of $200,000 is still considered middle class by most metrics. Maybe 4 in 10 are actually lower class like you said. But it doesn't take away from the fact that 5 out of 10 are middle class and haven't gone anywhere, the other one is upper class possibly. I can see lower middle class experiencing economic hardships for sure as the OP stated. However, like you mentioned there are some many factors involved in an individual's situation that's hard to blame one thing for it, I've experienced a few of those back in the day because of poor decision making. Can't really blame the system for it though.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Just going to say that this is the deciding factor imo. I read the first article, and no parameters are defined, and no sources are given.

Nevertheless, I would say there is a monumental difference between a "middle class" household at 40k, and a middle class household at 100k. I do not consider a 40k household of over 1 person middle class at all in this day and age, that is a low income household. To me middle class is about 60k and up for a house of 2, more if you have children.

The median household income in America is about $60K. Here's the graph (FRED's stats on this going from 1984 to 2016):

If a family in the middle of the income distribution isn't really "middle class" as we define it kind of subjectively, doesn't that mean that the "middle class" is at least in danger?

That said, there's a little irrational pessimism going on, I think. Healthcare, education, childcare, and housing are becoming less affordable for many, while food, clothing, utilities, communication, travel, and entertainment are becoming more affordable. Housing space and food quality are improving. Work is becoming far more pleasant. More people are retiring and going to college. People notice that the bad things and not the good things (or some people focus on the good things and ignore the bad things).

 

[cincymma79]

Maybe people would if others didn't say things like "60000 is enough to raise 3 kids. I know multiple people doing it".

60000 is enough here and most of the us
If it isn’t where you live
Stop shitting kids out
If you don’t get that
Don’t have kids at all we don’t need your genes

 

[Streeter]

When housing, cable, cigs, beer, cars, etc quadruples in cost over 30 years. There may be money issues.

In 92. Smokes were 2 bucks , a nice house was 100 maybe 150 in a good area beer 2 to 3 bucks at game, cable was 30 to 50 bucks if u had all channels, and a 15 car was decent.

 

[Jack V Savage]

A combined household income of $200,000 is still considered middle class by most metrics. Maybe 4 in 10 are actually lower class like you said. But it doesn't take away from the fact that 5 out of 10 are middle class and haven't gone anywhere, the other one is upper class possibly.

A household income of $200K is in the top 5%. Again, if only the top 5% can live a "middle class" lifestyle, that would mean that the "middle class" is over.

 

[JohnnySagebrush]

It is tough when you have kids. I've got three. And you don't know how much it costs until you go through that stage in life. But despite the times of financial hardship, you've got to look at how God has entrusted you with raising them to know the truth about who they are, who God is and what he's done for us, and how raise them to be a man or a woman.

“Listen, son, this is what it means to be a man; a man needs to devote thousands of hours to trolling Internet forums. When it gets to be too much, request to be banned. When you’re ready, come back using an alias, but deny any affiliation with your previous account. Nothing shows you are a man like endless, completely unproductive insincerity.”

 

[ndwolfwood]

How come nobody ever posts the study that says that happiness levels stagnate after you reach about 90k total family income?

 

[TeTe]

I found this interesting

https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0912/which-income-class-are-you.aspx

The Upper Middle Class

According to census data from 2015, 6.1% of households bring in $200,000 and higher every year and 14.1% bring in between $100,000 and $150,000. This is the upper middle class.

An Urban Institute paper argued that what they referred to as upper middle class, or those with a three-person household income between $100,000 and $350,000, has grown from 12.9% of the population in 1979 to 29.4% in 2014. It found that people with higher incomes saw their earnings grow faster than those with lower incomes.

My gf and I (whom live with) make a combined $165,000 a year.... funny they consider that "upper middle class" All that basically mean in San Diego is that we can afford to buy a house here. Considering the median home price here is $550,000, that income bracket doesn't really mean shit.

Think about that, two people earning $50,000 each annually in a home is upper middle class accoring to these people lol.

 

[Ripskater]

"The point of Christianity is that we can never overcome sin in society, so we should just stop trying and wait for Jesus to come back."

Lol. OK. Talk about flying directly in the face of EVERY legitimate teaching of the Church, starting with the first Christians who were noted for their unusual desire to care for widows and orphans.


... and... case in point.

Socialism will not rid society of sin. Socialism opens up another door to more sin. Namely large federal govt's that jail you for religious speech like you see in the UK and Europe. Or in Canada the loss of free speech where you must use the person's proper pronouns or else.

 

[TeTe]

A household income of $200K is in the top 5%. Again, if only the top 5% can live a "middle class" lifestyle, that would mean that the "middle class" is over.

But according to some, 60K household income is middle class as well... which is why I brought up the whole tier level to that term. Some people can live a middle class lifestyle on 60k, especially if you don't live in a big city. Again, there are too many variables to make blanket statements like "the middle class is gone"

 

[TeTe]

A household income of $200K is in the top 5%. Again, if only the top 5% can live a "middle class" lifestyle, that would mean that the "middle class" is over.

Although I should add, that you at least acknowledged that people are overreacting a bit in your previous post.

 

[cottagecheesefan]

That could be argued a lot of ways man but I dont think it is the point honestly. The point is that technology ought to be freeing everyone, scientific advancement ought to be raising everyone up and it is not.

It comes downs to what you want in this world. I want to live in a world where everyone has a certain basic level of dignity. A dignity I already enjoy. I think we can and should create a world where everyone has enough and can live in dignity.

The health care received back in the day is what was available. The healthcare received today ought to also be what is available.

The human experiment can progress in various ways. Education, nutrition, health care and a system that allows for the survival instinct to be largely satisfied can and will lead to a higher quality human race and happiness. I am all for this.

but what do you want done politically? Most of it can not be solved via the US political system. edit: even when politicians get involved, there are people profiting, ie: insurance companies and their growth in relation to Obamacare. Funny that Hillary Clinton's Campaign manager and his brother are lobbyists for insurance companies, hmmm.

If you look at the post world war 2 wealth gap in the US, it is quite stable until about the early 1970s. Outside of politics and evil corporations, that is about when there is an exponential growth in the population. Then of course this BOOM in population is going to completely distort the wealth gap. Especially when the boom in population is generally happening in lower class populations. Simple math shows that if you have 10 rich people per 100 people, you have the 1%. After 40 years and 6 billion people later, now you have 10 rich people per 1000 people, because of population boom.

So it is not really an accurate analysis.

And that is a direct example of increase in quality of life, is the fact we are now sustaining 5-6 billion more people within 50-60 years. Not to mention all the infrastructure governments and corporations have provided through massive telecommunication networks, roads and highways, etc.. So there are endless ways to look at the situation. As that is literally human life flourishing.

Pointing the finger to rich people, while not blaming poor people having babies is just not going to solve anything.

Look at all the areas off mass immigration and over population. Some places, vast bodies of water that sustained populations for millennia are now dried up. Even California has a massive drought problem. Resources like MRI's, medications, etc are all even much more limited than something like water.

That is why I quoted the OP, telling him his stats and article represent urban populations (where population growth is most prominent), and does not reflect the US as a whole. I didn't look into the other metrics, but just their use of the food insecurity metric was completely false in its representation as a trend for the US as a whole. Of course he never responded to that lol.

 

[Jack V Savage]

What's interesting to me is that if you adjust those numbers for inflation, the media household number has certainly dropped over the last 3 decades.

The numbers are already adjusted for inflation.

 

[Oblivian]

But according to some, 60K household income is middle class as well... which is why I brought up the whole tier level to that term. Some people can live a middle class lifestyle on 60k, especially if you don't live in a big city. Again, there are too many variables to make blanket statements like "the middle class is gone"

Defining middle class by income only is where the problem lies. There are way too many factors such as cost of living, assets, liabilities, etc. To me, someone middle class should be able to do the following:
1. Afford a median home price for their area
2. Save money for retirement, medical, and emergency funds
3. Keep liabilities low and not have credit card debt
4. Do all of this while still having funds for hobbies and entertainment

I think that's a quick summary of a middle class life. You are in a decent house, you don't have to worry too much about money for expenses, and you have money to enjoy the things you like doing.

A lot of people making $60k may be able to achieve this, but some making $150k aren't. It depends on so many factors.

 

[Ripskater]

That could be argued a lot of ways man but I dont think it is the point honestly. The point is that technology ought to be freeing everyone, scientific advancement ought to be raising everyone up and it is not.

It comes downs to what you want in this world. I want to live in a world where everyone has a certain basic level of dignity. A dignity I already enjoy. I think we can and should create a world where everyone has enough and can live in dignity.

The health care received back in the day is what was available. The healthcare received today ought to also be what is available.

The human experiment can progress in various ways. Education, nutrition, health care and a system that allows for the survival instinct to be largely satisfied can and will lead to a higher quality human race and happiness. I am all for this.

Be careful what you wish for. With large federal govt comes less freedom. In the UK, you can be jailed for sharing the Gospel if someone claims it's offensive.

Be careful that you're not looking for Heaven on earth through overreaching government when the Bible tells us there won't be that until Jesus returns.

There will always be inequality. There's always gonna be rich, and poor and in between. God made it that way. Our job is to personally live out the commands of Christ. Not to enact a govt that forces you to do this and takes away your freedom of speech and religion.

One day there will be a world govt promising solutions to everything. Read Revelations.

 

[ndwolfwood]

Defining middle class by income only is where the problem lies. There are way too many factors such as cost of living, assets, liabilities, etc. To me, someone middle class should be able to do the following:
1. Afford a median home price for their area
2. Save money for retirement, medical, and emergency funds
3. Keep liabilities low and not have credit card debt
4. Do all of this while still having funds for hobbies and entertainment

I think that's a quick summary of a middle class life. You are in a decent house, you don't have to worry too much about money for expenses, and you have money to enjoy the things you like doing.

A lot of people making $60k may be able to achieve this, but some making $150k aren't. It depends on so many factors.

I would say that people in general are very bad at saving. Some people don't like having an excess amount of money saved up. Or they save for a passion or interest they have and they spend it whenever they get an itch.

Long term frugality is a unique trait. Most people don't have the STOMACH for generational wealth creation.

 

[franklinstower]

Be careful what you wish for. With large federal govt comes less freedom. In the UK, you can be jailed for sharing the Gospel if someone claims it's offensive.

Be careful that you're not looking for Heaven on earth through overreaching government when the Bible tells us there won't be that until Jesus returns.

There will always be inequality. There's always gonna be rich, and poor and in between. God made it that way. Our job is to personally live out the commands of Christ. Not to enact a govt that forces you to do this and takes away your freedom of speech and religion.

One day there will be a world govt promising solutions to everything. Read Revelations.

If yo disagree disagree.\
As I said UHC and a guaranteed minimum wage free healthcare and even a guaranteed basic income would not ever remotely come close to replacing the kingdom of God. Only a profoundly impoverished view of the kingdom of God could possibly be threatened by such basic policies.

I am not even saying I support all of these policies mentioned, I am only exaggerating to show that we are in NO danger whatsoever or intruding upon the heavenly kingdom nor do any of these policies claim to do so.

Also how does it feel to be a full time troll Ripskater? I think it may be taxing barbecue you are not so good at it as you were before.... maybe lying all the time is draining psychologically?

 

[Oblivian]

I would say that people in general are very bad at saving. Some people don't like having an excess amount of money saved up. Or they save for a passion or interest they have and they spend it whenever they get an itch.

Long term frugality is a unique trait. Most people don't have the STOMACH for generational wealth creation.

It's such a weird thing to me that people don't like to have an emergency fund. I racked up credit card debt in college yoloing. I had 3-4 years with credit card debt and a low income, and it was miserable. I was able to pay it off in my early twenties and save money pretty quickly. The feeling of paying it off was amazing, but having the savings to never be in that situation was even better. I just can't fathom living a life where something like a $2000.00 household or car repair is going to cripple me. I agree though - many do live like that. My neighbor is an engineer who makes good money and their liquid funds can be as low as $1000.00 at times.

 

[panamaican]

The numbers are already adjusted for inflation.

Yeah, that was my mistake.

 

[ndwolfwood]

It's such a weird thing to me that people don't like to have an emergency fund. I racked up credit card debt in college yoloing. I had 3-4 years with credit card debt and a low income, and it was miserable. I was able to pay it off in my early twenties and save money pretty quickly. The feeling of paying it off was amazing, but having the savings to never be in that situation was even better. I just can't fathom living a life where something like a $2000.00 household or car repair is going to cripple me. I agree though - many do live like that. My neighbor is an engineer who makes good money and their liquid funds can be as low as $1000.00 at times.

I know a few custom builders/contractors/owner operating truck drivers who take work "when they need it". I am with you that I can't understand that thought process. I guess in a way it is freeing since you aren't a slave to money in the sense that it's constantly on your mind. But when you hit a hiccup that stress you've been avoiding is going to hit you like a sledge hammer.